My Story
A true fanatic.
Ah, the life of a pastor’s kid!
I grew up in Cambridge, Minnesota – a town of 5,000 people and 22 Christian churches. My father was (and still is) pastor of a small church. My mother volunteered to support Christian missionaries around the world.
I went to church, Bible study, and other church functions every week. I prayed often and earnestly. For 12 years I attended a Christian school that taught Bible classes and creation science. I played in worship bands. As a teenager I made trips to China and England to tell the atheists over there about Jesus.
I felt the presence of God. Sometimes I would tingle and sweat with the Holy Spirit. Other times I felt led by Him to give money to a certain cause, or to pay someone a specific compliment, or to walk to the cross at the front of my church and bow before it during a worship service.
Around age 19 I got depressed, probably because I did nothing but work at Wal-Mart, download music, and watch internet porn. But one day I saw a leaf twirling in the wind and it was so beautiful – like the twirling plastic bag in the movie American Beauty. I had an epiphany. I realized that everything in nature was a gift from God to me. Grass, lakes, trees, sunsets – all these were gifts of beauty from my Savior to me. I thought of this every time I saw something beautiful, and God delivered me from my depression (and my porn addiction).
I read Dallas Willard’s The Divine Conspiracy, a manual for how to fall in love with God so that following his ways is not a burden, but a natural and painless product of loving God. My dad and I read lots of this Christian self-help stuff. We shared our latest discoveries with each other and debated theology.
I moved to Minneapolis for college and was attracted to a Christian group led by Mark van Steenwyk. Mark’s small group of well-educated Jesus-followers were postmodern, “missional” Christians: they thought loving and serving others in the way of Jesus was more important than doctrinal truth. That resonated with me, and we lived it out with the poor immigrants of Minneapolis.
The seeds of doubt
By this time I had little interest in church structure or petty doctrinal disputes. I just wanted to be like Jesus. So I decided I should try to find out who Jesus actually was. I began to study the Historical Jesus.
What I learned, even when reading Christian scholars, shocked me. The gospels were written decades after Jesus’ death, by non-eyewitnesses. They are riddled with contradictions, legends, and known lies. Jesus and Paul disagreed on many core issues. And how could I accept the miracle claims about Jesus when I outright rejected other ancient miracle claims as superstitious nonsense?
These discoveries scared me. It was not what I had wanted to learn. But now I had to know the truth. I studied the Historical Jesus, the history of Christianity, the Bible, theology, and the philosophy of religion. Almost everything I read – even the books written by conservative Christians – gave me more reason to doubt, not less.
I started to panic. I felt like my best friend – my source of purpose and happiness and comfort – was dying. And worse, I was killing him. If only I could have faith! If only I could unlearn all these things and just believe. I cried out with the words from Mark 9:24, “Lord, help my unbelief!”
I tried. For every atheist book I read, I read five books by the very best Christian philosophers. The atheists made plain, simple sense, and the Christian philosophers were lost in fog of big words that tried to hide the weakness of their arguments.
I did everything I could to keep my faith. But I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t force myself to believe what I knew wasn’t true. On January 11, 2007, I whispered to myself: “There is no God.”
The next day I emailed my buddy Mark:
I didn’t want to bother you, but I’m lost and despairing and I could really use your help, if you can give it.
I made a historical study of Jesus, which led me to a study of the Bible, historical and philosophical arguments for and against God, atheist arguments, etc. It has destroyed my faith. I think there is almost certainly not a God…
I’m fucking miserable… I told my parents and they sobbed for 30 minutes. Can you help me?
As always, Mark responded with love and honesty. But he didn’t give me any reasons to believe. He said he believed mostly for the “aesthetics of belief” and his “somewhat mystical experiences of Christ.” He wrote, “In a way, I am a Christian because I want to be one, and the logic flows from there.”
I also wrote a defiant email to an atheist radio show host to whom I’d been listening, Matt Dillahunty:
I was coming from a lifetime high of surrendering… my life to Jesus, releasing myself from all cares and worries, and filling myself and others with love. Then I began an investigation of the historical Jesus… and since then I’ve been absolutely miserable. I do not think I am strong enough to be an atheist. Or brave enough. I have a broken leg, and my life is much better with a crutch… I’m going to seek genuine experience with God, to commune with God, and to reinforce my faith. I am going to avoid solid atheist arguments, because they are too compelling and cause for despair. I do not WANT to live in an empty, cold, ultimately purposeless universe in which I am worthless and inherently alone.
I hope that I find a real, true God in my journey of blind faith. I do not need to convince you of that God, since you seem satisfied as an atheist. But I need to convince myself of that God.
Matt responded to my every sentence with care, understanding, and reason. But I still tried to hang onto my faith. For a while I read nothing but Christian authors. Even the smartest ones just made lots of noise about “the mystery of God.” They used big words so that it sounded like they were saying something precise and convincing.
My dad told me I had been led astray because I was arrogant to think I could get to truth by studying. Humbled and encouraged, I started a new quest to find God. I wrote on my blog:
I’ve been humbled. I was “doing discipleship” in my own strength, because I thought I was smart enough and disciplined enough. [Now] having surrendered my prideful and independent ways to him, I can see how my weakness is God’s strength.
I’ve repented. I was deceived because I did not let the Spirit lead me into truth. Now I ask for God’s guidance in all quests for knowledge and wisdom.
I feel like I’ve been born again, again.
It didn’t last. Every time I reached out for some reason – any reason – to believe, God simply wasn’t there. I tried to believe despite the evidence, but I couldn’t believe a lie. Not anymore.
No matter how much I missed him, I couldn’t bring Jesus back to life.
Later…
I don’t recall how it happened, but eventually I found out that I could be more happy and moral without God than I ever was with him. I “came out” as an atheist to my family, friends, and church. They were surprised, but they still loved me. They were much more concerned when two elders of my church decided they were Catholic. I bonded with them briefly because the three of us were suddenly outcasts.
I had stubbornly resisted my deconversion, but these days I am excited to accept reality, no matter what it is. I remember when I finally realized the problems inherent to my precious Libertarianism. I was not dismayed or resistant; I was thrilled.
This comfort with truth unleashed my curiosity about Christianity and religion in full force. In my studies I uncovered lots of false facts and dishonest arguments from Christians and atheists. Each discovery only deepened my hunger for knowledge, but also my realization that humans know very little, and with little certainty.
Looking back
Looking back, I feel lucky that I left God for purely rational reasons instead of emotional ones. Indeed, all my emotions were pushing the other way.
But that’s probably not the norm. I bet most atheists today have lost their faith for irrational, emotional reasons – or else they were raised as atheists. When I went to the premiere of Bill Maher’s Religulous – one of the few blatantly atheist films released in America – almost the entire crowd was gay. I remember thinking they were probably atheists because the church rejected them, not because they knew the logical fallacies of the Kalam Cosmological Argument.
In many ways I regret my Christian upbringing. So much time and energy wasted on an invisible friend. So many bad lessons about morality, thinking, and sex. So much needless guilt.
But mostly I’m glad this is my story. Now I know what it’s like to be a true believer. I know what it’s like to fall in love with God and serve him with all my heart. I know what’s it like to experience his presence.
I know what it’s like to isolate one part of my life from reason or evidence, and I know what it’s like to think that is a virtue. I know what it’s like to earnestly seek the truth but still be totally deluded.
I know what it’s like to think that what I believe, or what my loving pastor says, or what my ancient book says, is more true than what reason and evidence say. I know what it’s like to think faith is a strength, not a gullible weakness.
I know what it’s like to be confused by the Trinity, the failure of prayers, or Biblical contradictions but to genuinely embrace them as the mystery of God. I know what it’s like to believe God is so far beyond human reason that we can’t understand him, but at the same time to fiercely believe I know the details of how he wants us to behave.
That was my experience for 22 years, and I am grateful for it. Now I can approach believers with true understanding.
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Hey, I had been waiting awhile now for your new site, looks good so far. Just wanted to say hey, and to tell you to keep up the good thought provoking work.
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Great. Thanks for sayin’ “hey.”
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Just to clarify, while I indeed do believe that “I am a Christian because I want to be one, and the logic flows from there” I believe that everyone’s logic flows from desire. Aesthetics conditions everyone’s belief. We encounter truth because we long for truth (longing being a category of theological aesthetics, it seems to me), and that longing conditions our encounter of truth. I believe in Christ because, in my longing for truth, I haven encountered his glory and presence in ways that I believe are every bit as valid as other sensory perceptions. So, when I speak of the aesthetics of belief, I am saying that just as many materialists only believe in what can be experienced by the senses, I believe that my aesthetic encounters with God condition and shape my perception of reality.
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Thanks for clarifying, Mark.
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Hi, I came across your site while trying to find good audiobooks I can download. I am sad that you have to turn from God. I can see that you are such a brilliant man, an intelligent one, and I believe God will speak to you (or have already been speaking), I jsut pray you will find it in you to listen to Him. I am not going to start a discussion, or any debate, as I know I will never win, but I will be praying for you, Luke.
You are loved.
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Hey Luke
What an interesting piece. Man you real deep. Well i guess i can share a few of your thoughts coz we lived together through some of these times and im sure we all had our moments where we faced a crossroad and we had to make a choice based on belief or anyother reason. Personally im still a christian who is trying to fight the good fight. I stumble, i fall, i complain, i wonder, i despair, i almost quit, i quit sometimes, i have problems believing somethings (eg like whether the sabbath is really on saturday or sunday try and figure that one and let me know what you find out)and so many other things bro. But i get up cry before God almighty, deal with my guilty conscious coz of what i believe God has done for me and whether im anywhere near deserving of how he continues to love me, and i move on live to fight another day. There is so much out in the world that has us thinking and i know it can get to a point where you just fill like doing your own thing coz its so mixed up but thats where faith comes in. Chrisitans like me and others have put in our fare share of not living our lives like christ did (for example by not loving those gay people you where with in the movie but continously rideculiong them)and this has done more harm than good, but one thing im sure of is that we know our hearts and God is the other being who knows them. We know our convictions and God is the other being who knows them and sooner or later God and those two areas of our live will seat down and have a meeting just the three of them, no aethism, no new age stuff, no nothing and we shall be still and know that God is God. I still love you bro always have and always will no matter what. You guys really left an imprint on my life. Let me leave you with two things to think about:
“if you dont believe in something you will fall for anything”
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”
Later
YOur bro and a believer who is struggling to live like christ and never wants to be seperated from the love of God. Hell aint got nothing on that kind of seperation.
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Kenneth,
If you live like Jesus you will do the world a favor. Don’t let me dissuade you from that!
“if you dont believe in something you will fall for anything”
I disagree. I try not to “believe” things in general unless they are well-evidenced. That is exactly what keeps me from falling for everything.
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”
Yes, and that is exactly the problem with faith. It is wishful thinking and invisible (non-)”evidence.”
Kenneth, you’re a great guy and becoming greater. So was Gandhi. But he was wrong about the Hindu gods existing. And you are wrong about the Christian gods (Yahweh and Yeshua).
P.S. I’m pretty sure the Sabbath is Saturday. That’s what it was for hundreds of years before Christians moved their Sabbath to Sunday sometime in the 3rd century C.E.
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Wasup Luke
Thanks for the reply well im not really trying to do the world a favour by trying to live like jesus. That would end in utter misery!I think its more about a relationship. about faith thats the reason that has been given a lot, tangibility and evidence hard facts for the eye to see etc well then it wouldnt be faith at allthen right, i think feeling insecure is one of the hardest things to accept or live with and the we try to feel that hole with evidence, facts etc not to feel vulnerable unyet the idea behind a relationship with christ is to yield ones life to him. Once you do that you begin to experience change. Well personally i dont think im much of a great anything, i just have a great God who continues to love me and show me grace when im down, tired and weak. Well evidence will not prove whether i am wrong about God. Im right about one thing, the christian faith has taken a lot of heat (like no other) about a lot of things whether they are factual, spiritual, traditional and all. Something has to be right for it to be such a threat. about the sabbath i think i agree with you. Tradition (not necessarily christians)changed a lot of things that we may be following sheepishly. God help us. I’ll approach a friend of mine with that could you direct me to some resources (bible related) that touches on that topic?
I remain your bro
Ken
P.S. i like the pics man what are you eating you are growing taller unless im dwarfing lol!!!!!!!
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Kenneth,
Some Sabbath learning comin’ at you:
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history1.asp
http://www.giveshare.org/HolyDay/historysabbath/
http://www.amazon.com/Sabbath-History-William-Congdon/dp/881669999X
But don’t trust anything you read.
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I believe the distinctives of Christianity, as described by Paul in Athens as recorded in the book of Acts, are well characterized as hypotheses that cannot be verified in their truth value in this life-time.
I don’t believe there would be any cause to remember them if Jesus had not died and rose again and that the concrete referents of this stem from the witness of followers of Christ. I believe once we control for the impact of the Constantinization of Christianity that the effects are pretty impressive. It is mainly when monotheism is coupled with imperialism that tragedy strikes, this has been exacerbated by virtue of how our progress in understanding of the physical world has not been matched by progress in loving our neighbors. I also think the Bible’s aesthetics are absolutely wonderful and under gird much that is good in our world. I love how it is the only religious book that requires people to understand the geography of a place. I think it contains the roots of our understanding of History and much else…
Here’s where I describe my views at Recovering Evangelical.
http://www.recoveringevangelical.com/profile/dlw
peace out.
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Hey i just read your story…actually religion need not be so mysterious..
God has given us the ability to reason and understand…
I have gone through some of the same situations in life as you have gone through and I returned back to my religion (islam) the same way you returned back to christianity.
But i didn’t find anything mysterious in my religion, everything was clear and i had better understanding of other religions and it had been corrupted over time. so why don’t you try out researching on this religion, islam which i believe to be the true religion of God, which was preached by noah, moses, abraham,solomon, jonah, other prophets and finally by muhammad.
This religion is based on reasoning and wisdom and not on blind faith
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Thanks for making this incredible resource. From your story it sounds as if we have very similar upbringings. I feel as if I was raised in a bubble of insular Christian thinking, and all bubbles pop. Because I was raised with so much theology, now that I’m on the other side of the fence I thirst to balance all the arguments and knowledge. 80% of my reading in the past year has been books about atheism and the origins of religion. I feel like I’ve stumbled upon an incredible secret, but nobody seems to care about it.
Thanks for the resources, good luck with your book,
Matt
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Luke, I read your story and also your link about your studies of Jesus. Lots of information there. In your story you seem to be curious about the experience of others who leave fervent Christian religion. You might be interested in exChristian.net. I’m not sure how this software works so I’ll type out the address and hope it posts:
http://www.ex-christian.net
There’s a Testimonies section where people who used to be Christians can post their life stories if they want to. Many people find that section helpful when they first arrive. The purpose of the website/forums is to support exChristians and provide resources for people who have deconverted. Anyone is welcome to read but certain sections are not open for Christians to post.
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rsmartin,
Thanks, I did post this story verbatim to ex-christian.net as well. There are many good testimonies there.
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hi luke. just read your story. just a question, on your quest for truth about the historical jesus, what’s the strongest evidence you’ve met that caused your ‘deconversion’?
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jared,
It certainly wasn’t one single fact, but hundreds and hundreds. Basically, Christianity looks very much like just another religion invented by ancient, ignorant, superstitious people. Its claims about the universe are numerously false – until they are reluctantly rewritten to keep up with science, which has only made God smaller, less active, and more hidden.
In regards to the historical Jesus, one of the most disturbing things for me AT THE TIME were the contradictions between the mission of Jesus and the mission of Paul. Christianity should be called Paulinism. Paul and his followers killed the Jesus movement in the 1st century.
Another major problem is that the gospels are the only evidence for the resurrection claim, and yet they are hearsay upon hearsay – literally, a double hearsay. It wouldn’t even be admitted in court, and yet it is not just supposed to be the “strong” evidence for something that happens all the time (theft, murder, whatever), but instead it’s supposed to be the “strong” evidence for something that NEVER happens, contradicts everything we DO know, and postulates all kinds of unnecessary and unknown assumptions: the magical resurrection of Jesus into a new magical body that can walk through walls, appear and disappear, and fly off into the sky!
(Where the heck was Jesus going, anyway? The people at the time thought heaven was just above the clouds, but we’ve checked now and it’s not there. Did Jesus fly off into the sky for a good show, and then when he got into the stratosphere he said, “Okay, now is far enough,” and then he vanished into that magical other-realm called heaven?)
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Luke thanks for the response.
On paragraph 1, you say Christianity was an invention. What made you think so? If you can recommend me a good reading about it, that would be fine. With regards to Christianity keeping up with science, what about the consensus among the philosophers of science that “modern” science is built on the Christian framework and that “mostly” if not all of the pioneer for modern science are Christians?
On paragraph two, i would like to share with you this link http://www.christian-thinktank.com/muslix.html by glen miller. Maybe you’re already familiar with him.
And the third, supposed miracles are possible, how do you find the “evidences” and conclusion being presented by Habermas, Licona and that of Craig?
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What do I recommend? Hmmm. Perhaps “Deconstructing Jesus” by Robert Price.
I love Miller’s site. Of course I’ll have to write some posts about Paul vs. Jesus, when I have time.
Habermas, Licona, Craig. I’m sure I’ll eventually write hundreds of posts responding to their claims. For now, I’d point you to:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/resurrection/
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Hi Luke, welcome to the club. Congrats on making it through it. It’s a tough journey; I know, because I went through so much of the same thing you did. And since letting go of my blind faith, I’m a much happier person.
Jeff
p.s. There’s a huge community on Facebook of people like us. You’re welcome to add me at tinyurl.com/FormerXianFB.
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By the way, to respond to Jared’s question, I devoted about 70 pages of my book about why Christianity was an invention. It’s called Christian No More and you can find it here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0981631304
Jeff
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I thought you might enjoy the William Lane Craig/Richard Carrier Debate.
http://www.brianauten.com/Apologetics/Craig-Car...
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Yeah, it was alright. I am subscribed to Brian's “Apologetics 315″ blog, of course.
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Do you believe in love?
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Wow lukeprog. Your story makes me very sad, I'm not gonna lie. But the Atheist Experience is not what I'd call deep-thinking atheism (given the numerous interactions I've had with them in their own comboxes), to be perfectly honest, but I guess it's better (by “better” I mean more thought-provoking) than listening to Dan Barker, though he's closer to you, up in Wisconsin. If I may ask, when have you subjected your new faith to the same scrutiny (selective though it was) to which you subjected Christianity? How did you go about doing so?
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Interesting story, I can relate to most of it. Born into a nearly 100% evangelical family, I grew up in a communist country, so there was always a tension between the “official” life and the closest friends and family but I´m thankful for the experience of living in a smaller group that´s convinced of having a certain truth and is under pressure from people who think differently and are just as well convinced of having discovered fundamental truths everybody should believe in.
I always thought that my faith should be logical and backed up with evidence, so, even during the long time I was a very sincere christian, I usually hesitated to use the backdoor provided by gods almighty powers and our limited knowledge of his ways to explain things in the bible or in theology that seemed contradicting or strange to me, but since I didnt question the foundations of my believes I could cover everything up in the end.
Still, research on different religions, churches and sects brought me step by step to a more liberal view on faith. I still was absolutely sure that the christian god existed and Jesus was his son who died for our sins, but since there were so many different faith systems dealing differently with what to think and belief beyond that, all relying on the same sources I kind of created my own interpretation. One reason for that: as I said before, in contrast to probably most amercan readers of the blog, I was “surrounded” by atheists or at least nonbelievers, knew several of them very well and the were childhood friends. I found them to be basically just as “normal” and “good” or “bad” as the christians I knew and I had problems believing that an just god would sent them to hell for all eternity just for nor believing.
I liked the talmudic concept of the seven laws of noah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah because it provided the possibility for everybody to get into heaven whether or not he was the member of a certain religion. I just tried to be a good person and selected the bible quotes that seemed to encourage that and the rest of my views, just like everybody else did.
More research especially during my time at the university led me to read and write about different “quacks” and pseudoscientific systems. Thats when I learned to use the tools of science, logic and reason more systematically than before, to be able to tell good evidenve from bad evidence logical reasoning from unsubstantial claims and so on. There are basic problems with close to all that systems inculding religions (you described it here yourself) but I still somehow tried not to use that tools on MY beliefs, probably because I got told (like most christians) through most of my life that christianity is NOT a religion lik others even if it seems to be. But I got to a point where I couldn´t justify that special treatment anymore and had to question even the foundations and I found them to be the same as in any other system, coming to the conclusions that they are most likely all incorrent and that so far theres no real evidence for the existence of any of the gods.
Long story short: I share your basically positive experiences with my faith (there are a lot of different stories of course), and I didn´t “let god go” because I didn´t want to be controlled anymore or hated him because he didnt help me in a bad situation or because he was in my way to self-fulfillment. I just had to be honest to myself.
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Great story!
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Thank you. And congratz to your blog, I really like that you are trying to be fair to everyone and willing to kick bad arguing and easily self-satisfied atheists in the b… if necessary. We need to check and recheck our arguments and sources and the way we present them just as good as everyone else.
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Sounds kinda like me, except I wasn't a PK and I didn't read quite as much as you until after I deconverted.
Your blog is my new favorite.
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I was wondering if you are a homosexual?
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Nope!
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I lived in Minnesota for 6 years and nearly stopped believing in God as a result. That is a Godawful, God-forsaken climate.
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Ha!
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Lukeprog,
Thanks for your informative website. I love atheist/theist debates and found your website a couple of months ago. In your review of the Craig/Hitchens debate, you wrote a question that you would like to have asked Dr. Craig and I’d like to take a crack at it. Your question concerned whether objective moral values exist apart from God (here you point to Craig’s answer to question 61 on his website regarding abortion) or whether they are grounded in God. In answering question 61, Craig writes that abortion is wrong because human life has intrinsic moral value. As you point out, Craig seems to imply that we know that human life has intrinsic value apart from knowing anything about God. But if this is the case, then in what sense are objective moral values grounded in God?
I think what Craig would say is that we do have knowledge of objective moral values independent of any knowledge of God. This knowledge includes the proposition that human life has intrinsic value. However, there is no foundation for this knowledge outside of God. In other words, while we know that human life has intrinsic value, we can’t explain why human life has intrinsic value outside of God. (Whereas, under Christianity, human life has intrinsic value because God has created humanity in His image in order that we might spend eternity with God in the hereafter). Thus objective moral values are grounded in God’s nature, although we have knowledge of these values independent of any knowledge of God. As a result, I don’t think there is any contradiction between Craig’s statement that we know human life has intrinsic value and his argument that objective morality has to be grounded in God’s nature. What do you think?
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“Intrinsic value” is not about epistemology, but ontology. If something has intrinsic value, it’s value does not depend on anything outside it – like the opinion or nature of God.
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this is an excellent website Luke. Truth is everything, and your aching to find and only believe and drink from its fountain is admirable. i have gone through very similar doubts and have come to other conclusions, but i resonate completely with your refusal to believe in something that doesn’t correspond to reality. You are a critical thinker to be sure…i would think you might want to consider a masters or PHD in philosophy or philosophy of religion.
May the truth continue to run wild in your life!
-mark
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mark almlie, thanks for the encouragement!
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Thank you for sharing your story. I’m so glad you found happiness in atheism!
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Hiya Luke. I just now read your deconversion story (can’t believe it took me this long) and it’s very touching. Thank you for sharing.
I also listen to the Atheist Experience and Non-Prophets religiously. If I can use the term. 
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Luke, let me share something with you. I am a police detective in a major city in our nation. Yesterday I appeared in court. An assistant state attorney looked at me, as I was leaving and said, “Have a good holiday detective.” I had NO idea what she was talking about. I asked her what holiday she was talking about. She told me, “Easter.” I was curious. I asked her what exactly Easter meant to celebrate. She told me it is the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I told her thank you and that I always wanted to ask someone that question. She then asked me if I am Muslim and if not, how I could not have known the purpose of Easter. I told her I have never been religious. She became very annoyed. She pressed the issue. She then asked me why I do not believe. I told her for the same reason I do not believe in Frodo the Hobbit, alien abductions, werewolves, vampires, or the Blair Witch. She looked at me like I was insane. I then realized something. This woman had never met an out of the closet atheist. I want the religious people out there to know something. There are those of us in the world, who are atheist, who have no problem admitting it. I have no problem with laughing out loud when someone makes a bold claim to KNOW the existence of something supernatural. I have no problem completely disregarding emotional unfounded beliefs in things for which there is NO evidence. I find it fascinating that religious people get a pass. If you say something is true, demonstrate that it is. I am glad you shed your christianity. I am sorry for the pain of the transformation. I am happy for you.
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Bobby, that is wonderful. Thank you.
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Great article. I’m curious, as someone who went through a similar journey: do you still find a place for ecstatic experiences in your life? Something I’ve observed about a lot of the people making a transition to atheism is that even when they avoid the pitfalls of reactionary anger, they carry it to the point of rejecting every part of their lives that smacks of mysticism or superstition. And in the process, they miss out on the intensely human experience of spiritual ecstasy, even though ecstasy is orthogonal to dogmatic belief. I’d be curious to read your take on this topic.
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Avdi,
I’m quite fond of ecstasy.
Though, I don’t get it from delusions of magical realities, nor even through drugs. But that’s just my choice.
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So what’s your chosen avenue? Mountain climbing? Meditation? Live music shows? Just curious.
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Oh, goodness. The right music can definitely move into a kind of “transcendent” experience. Good sex can, too. Arriving at previously unseen wonders of natural beauty can also do the trick, though I haven’t had much time for travel recently.
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lukeprog,
you’re a kid. kid’s are supposed to run around and question reality and life and god. everybody knows this. you’re asking god to give you questions to answers that didn’t even exist 50 years ago.
if you ask me it’s about trust. right now you’re young and strong and invincible and there’s no reason not to trust yourself. but like most things in this short miserable life, you’ll learn you can’t even trust yourself. every whim, ache and desire coming from your body is a clear signpost but to what I’m afraid only you can discover yourself. You’re questioning things, great but you’re no intellectual giant. neither am i – no big deal. you have a lot of life ahead of you. I came to the same exact conclusions when I was your age. let me know how your quest for morality without god works out.
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mstott25,
Why should I trust in Yahweh? Why not science? Or Vahiguru? Or nothing? Or Allah?
It doesn’t take an intellectual giant to realize that Zeus does not exist.
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lukeprog,
well uh…that’s kind of my point. You are going to trust in something, that much is obvious. Whether it’s science, or Allah or your own ability to reason and interpret life. No matter what path you decide to take you’ll never be certain about anything. No matter how you try to explain reality or your personal experiences you will always have to draw the answers from sort of backdrop or meta-narrative. There’s a reason you wake up and get on the computer and talk about why you aren’t a Christian anymore. There’s a reason why you, me and everybody else performs certain habits every single day of our lives. You can try to explain it with science, or music, or art or any other medium you please. Science can tell you many things but it can’t tell you how to stay in love. Survival of the fittest explains many things but it cannot explain why humans retained an obvious penchant for wasting time and energy by attributing certain acts of worship to a non-existent god. You will have just as many questions about reality and life as a materialist than you ever did as a Christian. Furthermore what really makes me sad is seeing you fall into this same crowd of dreamers who sit around and fantasize about stumping William Lane Craig! C’mon man, you have a lot more potential than that. Everybody writes these articles and makes these claims and when they finally get a chance to encounter Craig they get annihilated. If you’re not a Christian anymore then get away from this stuff; go study architecture or economics but don’t be delusional like all of these other internet warriors who dream about being the long awaited atheist messiah that finally stumps William Lane Craig.
I’ll quit now because you remind me of myself and I know how useless all of this is. I wish we could hang out for a while, I wish I could show you some things about life and things away from the classroom and the library but you have your own journey. I promise you one day you will realize that your days of doing “nothing but work at Wal-Mart, download music, and watch internet porn” were hardly the definition of a healthy Christian life.
Sorry this was so long and I wish we could have had this conversation at Starbucks since I’m aware it sounds much more abrasive in this format. I wish you luck and I’m glad you’re going through this whole thing while you’re still at a young age and able to come out with a lot of life left on the other end. take care man.
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“Science can tell you many things but it can’t tell you how to stay in love.”
Are you kidding? Yes it can! It can do so much better than any other method!
“Survival of the fittest explains many things but it cannot explain why humans retained an obvious penchant for wasting time and energy by attributing certain acts of worship to a non-existent god.”
Um, well… no, that’s because survival of the fittest isn’t all that’s going on.
“You will have just as many questions about reality and life as a materialist than you ever did as a Christian.”
Yup!
“Furthermore what really makes me sad is seeing you fall into this same crowd of dreamers who sit around and fantasize about stumping William Lane Craig! C’mon man, you have a lot more potential than that.”
Um, really I don’t. I just engage with him because unlike many philosophers – Christian or otherwise – he make coherent arguments. I do have more potential then that, and I think it might be in the realm of meta-ethics, but I have a lot of studying to do…
“don’t be delusional like all of these other internet warriors who dream about being the long awaited atheist messiah that finally stumps William Lane Craig.”
Lol, indeed! It’s like the theists who post excited YouTube videos about stumping Dawkins, which is much easier than stumping Craig anyway…
“you will realize that your days of doing “nothing but work at Wal-Mart, download music, and watch internet porn” were hardly the definition of a healthy Christian life. ”
Oh, I realized that at the time, trust me. Those were my dark days, before my re-awakening, before I fell in love with God and did my best to shed sin.
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Luke
I just came across your website and story, and found it very interesting. I was interested that the key factor for your conversion to atheism was questioning the historical basis for belief in Jesus, for I went through a similar process but with different result. I hope you’ll be interested in my story.
I was not brought up in a christian home, but I was sent to Sunday School and by 17 I had committed myself to following Jesus. Like you, I was troubled by the apparent discrepancy between evangelical christian teaching and what I found in the gospels. So, like you, I started reading what historians and theologians were saying.
But, unlike you, I found satisfactory and indeed inspiring answers. I read theologians like AM Hunter, and for the first time understood Jesus in his Jewish context, and it excited me. And I later read historians like Michael Grant, an expert in the Roman Empire, and found that secular historians (even unbelieving ones like Grant) took the gospels etc quite seriously as historical sources, even though they didn’t regard the Bible as inerrant or inspired.
I will comment on this in more detail elsewhere, but the result was that I was confirmed in my understanding that Biblical inerrancy was not itself claimed by the Bible writers, but also confirmed in my understanding that it is historically sensible to believe that Jesus existed and did and said much of what the gospels say about him. Whether one believes he did miracles, rose from the dead, or was the Son of God are, of course, matters which the historical method cannot address, but historians can confirm that christians believed in these things from the very first, and so they are not later legends.
So I stayed a believer, with a strong interest in history and philosophy. I guess the interesting question (which I don’t have an answer for) is why you and I, faced with similar evidence, came to such different conclusions? Any thoughts?
Best wishes.
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unkleE,
Thanks for sharing your story, but obviously I have no idea why we’ve come to different conclusions.
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Yes, I guess I was asking a bit much, but I thought you might have a feeling about some key factors. Here’s my first guess …..
Changing a belief or a strongly held opinion generally requires a significant shock to that belief. Perhaps there may have been two differences between you and I that might have made a difference.
1. Although I was taught as a teen that the Bible was inerrant, it wasn’t strongly taught, and I knew it wasn’t a Biblical teaching. So I never really believed it, and thus had no problems treating the Bible as a human document, albeit divinely inspired. I’m guessing you had a much stronger belief in inerrancy that made your choice much more black and white.
2. The first scholars I came across were not highly sceptical, but were more middle-of-the-road, so I gained positive knowledge from them which enhanced my belief. You mention Ehrman (highly sceptical), Wright (moderately believing) and Thiessen & Merz (not sure, but I think reasonably middle-of-the-road), but I guess there were others, and they seem to have had a negative effect overall. So perhaps overall you were reading more sceptical scholars than I was.
Thus more sceptical scholars and a more black and white view of the Bible led to a greater shock to your worldview than I experienced. Do you think those factors made a difference?
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Quite possibly, but my deconversion was still gradual. By the time I started studying the historical Jesus, I already believed in evolution, and certainly didn’t hold to Biblical inerrancy.
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Luke,
Thanks for sharing your story. I was raised in a tepidly religious family, and when I came to the conclusion that what I’d been taught probably wasn’t true, it wasn’t difficult to drop it. As an extra bonus, my family dropped it all around the same time. Consequently I’m a little in awe of people like who, whose deconversions were the hardest decisions of their lives. You, sir, are a brave man.
FrodoSaves
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“When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” – Stephen Roberts
I’ve seen this quoted by many atheists but don’t see any power in it. When determining the sum of 2+2, I reject 5, 6, and 7. That doesn’t mean I should also reject 4. Just because every answer is not valid does not mean there is no valid answer.
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No, Mark, the quote means that I reject the existence of Yahweh for the same reasons you reject the existence of Zeus, Vahiguru, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Santa Claus. It’s just that you apply different standards to your own religious beliefs than you do to everybody else’s.
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Luke, I am applying the same standard to all beliefs, as much as is reasonably possible. I don’t believe HillaryC or JohnM is president of the United States, must I also disbelieve Mr. Obama too? Objective consideration can yield a true positive answer, don’t you agree? And a question such as what is god will reasonably yield a single answer. Multiple answers would be unreasonable when considering “what force or being is behind all of reality”.
For more along these lines, check out the article on my site in the associated link.
Thanks, Mark
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Hi,
I’m intrigued. OK, knowing that Jesus said that not everyone who says to Him “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of His Father who is in heaven… please tell me your story on why you ever became a Christian in the first place and on what basis did you believe that you were a true convert as opposed to a false self-deceived convert like the one mentioned above or in the parable of the sower. Thanks.
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Adiel, I was raised Christian.
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I hear you Luke, but so was I, and though I had been baptized, and went to church and youth group etc, I was as lost and anti-God and hell-bound as anyone. And what is scary is that I didn’t know it. Why didn’t I know it? Because I had been fed a false Gospel, one that assuaged my conscience, while I committed and was in bondage to all manner of sin. In other words I was deceived into thinking I was Christian when in reality I wasn’t. So I guess, that is why I’m interested in hearing about your conversion and on what basis you considered yourself a true follower of Christ as opposed to a false convert which the Bible continually warns us about.
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Adiel, how do you know that you were deceived then, and not now? After all, you were definitely convinced back then that you were a Christian, right? You could just as well be fooled now, and just not know it yet.
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I, for one, really did believe it all, when I was a Christian. I don’t really care if you believe that or not (after all, you think that I am a deranged liar who hates God now, despite my assertion that I form beliefs through evidence rather than wishful thinking).
I’m sure glad that I decided to stop letting myself be fooled by others, and begin thinking about things on my own.
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Good question Lorkas.
The reason is because I know Him, He revealed Himself to me through His Word, and because my assurance is based on the Word of God and not Pop Christianity or man’s ideas.
I’m interested, on what basis did you ever believe that you were actually saved? How do you know you were not a false convert all along? I mean, the Scripture clearly says that many of the people who ‘believe’ are not actually saved, for example:
“Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.”
So how do you know you were not one of these types of ‘believers’? On what did you base your assurance of knowing Jesus?
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Shorter: “I know because I know”
This is really no justification at all, as I hope you can see. I stopped being a Christian because I lost patience with myself and my conreligionists for rationalizing away beliefs that are irrational.
On distinguishing true believers from false, the Bible says “You will know them by their fruits.”
I spent 10 years of my life active in a church, community service, mission trips, and travelled all over Central America living among those in poverty to better understand the Gospel. I gave thousands of hours in volunteer work to various causes that I felt that Jesus would have had me spend my time on.
I professed the gospel, made a habit of praying constantly, attended a four-year Evangelical university, and practiced apologetics, as you are on this website. If you have a good reason to think yourself a Christian now, then there is no basis for anyone to claim that I was not a Christian.
However, as I began to critically examine my worldview (another story), I found that I could not justify belief in Christianity if I applied the same logic to Christianity that I used to reject other religions. It was hard to give up my Christianity (for one thing, my wife was a Christian, and I wasn’t sure if she would stay with me if I no longer believed. Turns out, I told her all of the questions that I was asking about my own faith, and she found that she could not answer those questions, either, without assuming Christianity to be false).
Using the standard of the Bible that I cited above, it is clear that I was a Christian in the past. If you can’t trust my testimony, then you can’t trust the testimony of anyone who claims to be a Christian.
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Whoa, that got pretty long. Sorry for the textwall.
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Lorkas,
While I sincerely appreciate you taking your time out to respond and explain why you believed yourself to be a true Christian I must point out that your reasons are not based on sufficient biblical grounds. For example, lets compare your works to the works of some of those whom Jesus said were self-deceived:
Lorkas: active church attendance, community service, mission trips, and travelled to better understand the Gospel, thousands of hours in volunteer work, professed the Gospel, constant prayer, religious instruction, apologetics.
VS
Deceived Followers of God: prophesy in the name of Jesus, perform exorcisms in the name of Jesus, perform miraculous works in the name of Jesus (all these from Matthew 7:21-23), live a ‘moral’ life, fast twice a week or three or four times, have great knowledge of the truths of Scripture, be known for heavy religious involvement like the Pharisees and even be called “Apostle”, be included in Jesus’ inner circle to the point where you are the treasurer, and go from town to town telling people people to repent like Judas
Again I ask you, what difference was there between you and all the false believers the Bible describes?
On what basis did you ever believe yourself to be a true Christian?
Adiel
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Lorkas:
I like your blog and I enjoyed reading your heartfelt deconversion story. It is similar in some ways to my own although I didn’t lose my faith completely until I was in my early forties.
I have explored a lot of the same topics you write about and I started blogging late last year — http://richardstheoryofeverything.blogspot.com/
Best of luck to you.
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Richard,
I’m flattered at the mistake, but this blog actually belongs to lukeprog. I just frequent the blog and post comments here.
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Luke,
Been following your blog for a couple months now. You’re doing a great job—thanks for that. I am listening to your audiobook at the moment, and so far, it’s wonderful too!
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Interesting read. In addition,
…
<—-Is waiting on a continuation of the Lorkas-Adiel Corchado showdown.
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I’ve really been interested in how people should respond to those who say “You were never a Christian”, either directly or indirectly. Such talk has made me uncertain of my own belief as it at least gives the impression that no one knows what they’re talking about or only some of the devout are chosen. How else could someone who as sincere fall away?
On a nearly separate note, I’m curious as to if the people from Heartcry/I’llbehonest are well versed on the problems that a scholar like Ehrman has brought to the table when they say speak of or imply that people weren’t Christian.
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He describes his early days as an atheist as exhilarating: “For months, I walked on air.”
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Hi!
Please, read the writings of Vincent Cheung. Cheers!
Osmar Neves, Brazil.
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From his site:
“ABOUT VINCENT CHEUNG
Vincent Cheung is the author of over thirty books as well as hundreds of lectures and sermons on a wide range of topics. Among his publications are foundational texts in Christian theology, philosophy, apologetics, spirituality, and a number of biblical commentaries. He is committed to the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, and thus all the doctrines that it affirms — that God is sovereign over all things and all minds, that the non-Christian man is unrighteous and unintelligent, that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, that the believer possesses eternal life and would be received into heaven, and that the unbeliever is condemned to everlasting suffering in hellfire. Through his outreaches and publications, he is training Christians to understand, implement, and advance the biblical worldview as a comprehensive and coherent system of thought revealed by God in Scripture. He and his wife, Denise, reside in Boston, Massachusetts.”
http://www.vincentcheung.com/about/
Concentrate on the part about non-Christians supposedly being unintellliegent.
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I wanted to read on,but it seems that the article has to be paid for in order to view it. Do you happen to have another source for it?
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Hey Luke,
My story is very similar to yours, Also being a preacher’s son. I too, felt the feelings you write about and set out to do my own study, which only strengthened my faith in God…….I guess one can find what one is looking for……gotta have faith in something…..I hope for you to live your life as you choose and be happy…I appreciated your critique of Craig and Mooreland’s new book. It was very helpful to me………I believe the day will come that you will embrace spiritual discernment again…..either way…Best of luck and thanks for the debate section. It’s awesome
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Thanks, jonc.
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Hi Luke,
I stumbled across your blog while I was searching for links about the Craig-Hitchens debate and of course I had to read your “My Story” link. Anyway, I just wanted to comment on a couple of things.
When you said, “I know what it’s like to fall in love with God and serve him with all my heart.” Obviously what you meant to say is that you know what it’s like to fall in love with the idea of God. Right? Because now, since you know that there is no God, you must realize that what you thought was God, what you thought that you fell in love with, was just a fantasy.
And when you said, “I know what it’s like to experience his presence.” No, you don’t. If God doesn’t exist, then obviously you can’t experience His presence because there’s nothing there to experience. So, whatever you experienced was just more of that fantastic imagination of yours. However, if God does exist and you did experience His presence… well, I will let you finish this sentence.
You said, “Now I know what it’s like to be a true believer.” What do you mean by “true believer?” Is that what you are now? Or is that what you thought you were when you believed in a God that you now believe doesn’t exist?
You said, “I know what it’s like to earnestly seek the truth but still be totally deluded.” Ok. Earlier in your life you were completely convinced that God did exist. But you claim that by acquiring more knowledge you have freed yourself from that delusion. Now you are completely convinced that there is no God. Is that because you now possess a perfect understanding of all things? If not, then how can you be so certain that you are not still deluded?
Luke, I must say that you are one of the few professing atheists that I have enjoyed reading. You remain polite with those that disagree with you and on occasion you have even encouraged those who disagree to continue with their faith. Wow! Also, from what little I have read so far you don’t come across as an arrogant know-it-all. I haven’t read it anywhere on you blog, but you seem to realize that we all are doing the same thing; we cherry pick the best arguments for our position and then articulate it as best we can.
I would expect that we have read many of the same books. With the exception of some new facts thrown in from modern science, all of the arguments for and against the existence of God are the same as they were in the first century. It’s just a different crowd arguing about the same things. I am sure that you know this quote: “There is nothing new under the sun.”
It surprises me how similar your story is to my own; however, I started out as a complete atheist and now I am a Christian. Like yours, my journey started as a quest for knowledge, but we started and ended on opposite ends of the road. I will cherry pick this as one more confirming fact of my faith. More specifically, that man by his own pursuits can not bridge the gap that sin has created; we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ through grace and that is an act of God least any man should boast. Peace!
Solo Dei Gloria!!!
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amen … you articulated a male version of my life minus the pastor father …
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William,
What I meant by the “I know what it’s like” sentences is that I had the exact same experiences with “God” that people who are still believers have had. I experienced God as God, just as current believers continue to do so. Our subjective experiences were the same.
Thanks for your compliments.
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Hi
Great website.
I am a 34 year old born in a Hindu family in India. I have been an atheist by default ever since i remember and have only recently since a couple of years after reading books and blogs like yours that i appreciate it more. I think i was an atheist for all the simple reasons before like superstitions, rituals, suffering etc. and it was only recently that i have gone thru this whole thing of the cosmological arguments, evolution etc etc.
However, what i dont understand is this. I have a younger brother by 2 years and we have both grown up pretty much the same. But he seems to have a completely different mind and though doesnt believe in any superstitions or actual religions but does believe that there is a god and there is a purpose to life which we need to find.
No matter how many times we argue, i am not able to get to make him get into my thinking.
It of course could be due to my lack of articulation or debate skills but i was also just wondering whether this kind of atheist thinking is also born within and not all are born to realize this. Maybe you and me are the kind who was born with this atheistic kind of thinking and perhaps it was just chance that you got back to that after years of christianity.
Are you aware of anyone who has been on the side of the Craigs classic 5 arguments initially and have since then gone over to the other side after listenig to debates etc.? I am thinking that there will not be any such.
What do you think?
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Ajay,
Thanks for sharing your story.
I also have a brother who is younger than I by two years. We had the same upbringing but he still believes in God.
Also, I was on the side of Craig’s 5 arguments, and I was a big fan of Craig, but have since converted to atheism after reading some work from the other side.
I don’t think there is a ‘theist’ or ‘atheist’ gene, but genes surely play a role. For example, someone who is more predisposed to independence will be more likely to adopt atheism. Someone for whom relationships and family are very important will be LESS likely to abandon the religion of their friends and family. Etc.
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Luke,
I stumbled across this website, http://www.wordle.net, and entered the text from your “My Story” post. You can see it here:
http://www.wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/979360/My_Story_by_Luke_Muehlhauser
Its a neat little site.
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Huh. Fun!
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Hi Luke,
Do you believe the world is a better place if everyone is an atheist or do you believe it is better off today.
I personally feel condescending about a majority of the humans and feel that religion is indeed useful to deter many humans from committing murders, rapes, stealing, other crimes. I am sure most of them are doing anyway even if they are religious but they may do such things much more if they know for sure that there is no judgment coming.
What do u think?
- Ajay
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Ajay,
I don’t know, but I suspect the world is better off without gods in general in the same way that the world is better off without widespread belief in Marduk or astrology.
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You write: “I bet most atheists today have lost their faith for irrational, emotional reasons – or else they were raised as atheists.”
(1) What could be irrational about losing an irrational faith?
(2) I’ve never had religious faith.
(3) I wasn’t raised atheist either. I was sent to Sunday School for 8 years (from age 4 to age 12) and never believed a single word they told me. On the first Sunday I argued with the teacher about angels. She said they existed and I said they probably didn’t – otherwise we’d occasionally see one or two of them. Not a great argument, but not bad for a four year old.
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Michael,
You can disbelieve in silly things for silly reasons. For example, you might reject the truth of Christianity not for lack of evidence, but because the Christians you know are not nice.
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Hey Mark,
I’m so glad I found this site, and got goose-bums several times when I read your story, simply because it reminded me so much of my own. I think for most ex-believers, there is that defining moment when it all changed, the realization epiphany – after which everything changes, and no matter how much you try to convince yourself after that that you are simply “straying”, the truth has revealed itself. I too was greatly conflicted and tormented and devoured vast amounts of literature to try and understand what was happening to me, when in the end I realized my reason had simply overcome my need to believe in something that doesn’t exist
[I also had a run in with the church round about the same timem which shocked me deeply, and probably excellerated the process for me]
I think it was luther who said: ”the greatest enenemy of christianity(religion) is reason”
I will defintely be camping here and contributing to your blog, especially since I feel a lot of reciprocity going around.
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Marius,
Thanks. But, my name is “Luke.”
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Sorry Luke! my bad
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Hi Luke,
Just found your website and read your story–almost the mirror image of my story. It’s funny how you mention that most people “deconvert” for emotional rather than logical reasons. I agree. In fact, whenever someone learns that I don’t believe in God they always ask me “who hurt you?”, or “what happened in your life to make you reject God?” It seems incomprehensible to most people that I would actually be lead away from a belief in God while pursuing the truth. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to create this website. I really enjoy the content and the attitude expressed throughout. I’ll be a frequent visitor.
Tim
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Tim, it’s good to hear from you.
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Hey man.
The very basis of the Chrisitan faith is based upon the rejected one…thus, gays should be the very core of the Christian faith.
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Hi Luke,
Great story, great journey. I know that thousands of young people around the world are making the same journey in life. With the information age we ‘re in their numbers will only grow. I am also a son of Christian parents. My father is a minister. My story is the same, except I was never engulfed so much in Christian life as you, most likely because I live in the Netherlands, and faith and church are nowhere as much incorporated into daily life over here as in rural America. From a young age I was sceptical, but only in recent years I totally broke with faith. The thing I recognize most in your story is the bit about the reading.. The clear arguments from atheist writers and the woolly thinking of the christian philosophers.
The thing I find the hardest is the relation with my parents. We still love each other as much as before, but we just don’t seem to be able to discuss religion. I am afraid that they agree with me inside, but are caught in their livelong tradition and professional career in the Christian world. They can’t give up faith just the same as I cannot believe it any more. I don’t talk about in fear of hurting them. This feels like a limitation in my live, as I cannot discuss some things with the people closest to me, but fortunately I live in a day and age where contact with people all over the world has become the norm. And psychologically becoming 100% atheist has been very good for me. I get more joy out the marvels of the universe and have no fears.
I wish you all the best in the rest of your life
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Wow man, you said something that is almost a direct quote from my own deconversion story. (click my name to get to my site and It is listed there under about me) .
I totally get that, it is exactly how I felt and I didn’t think i had anyone at all to turn to.
Thanks for posting this, glad you were able to come out of it much like I did. We are both better for having done it.
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Matt,
Yes, I’m glad you made it out, too.
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Luke,
So, in your My Story words I just wanted to be like Jesus. So I decided I should try to find out who Jesus actually was. I began to study the Historical Jesus.
What I learned, even when reading Christian scholars, shocked me.
Two thoughts:
1) Your stated desire echoes the oldest temptation offered, “You will be like the Most High.” Right down to the methodology – via wisdom. There is a world of difference between, “I want to be like Jesus” versus “I want to please Jesus.” The first is intellectual auto-eroticism and the second is discipleship.
2) Having set your feet on the path of pursuing Godlikedness through Reason, you picked a sorry guide.
Resorting to Bart Ehrman to find Jesus? That was a mistake. Little wonder you threw away your faith. As educated as he is, Ehrman’s voice isn’t the only one to handle the text, impressed with his arguments, it appears you surrendered too easily. You would have been better served following the scholarship of F.F.Bruce, Gordon Fee, Douglas Moo, or D.A. Carson. It wasn’t without reason Luther observed, “Reason is a whore.” Looks like you’ve been bagged by some fine-sounding impressive arguments.
Are Christians ever tempted to stop believing? Just ask Hymenaues and Alexander – or Ehrman. Temptation and doubt are not shameful – its the giving up that accrues the approbation of heaven. Enjoy a few decades of unbridled pleasures (just like Jesus, huh?).
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Beau,
The New Testament frequently calls disciples of Jesus to “be Christlike.” That’s what I wanted.
It just turned out that Christianity is false, just like Hinduism and Zoroastrianism.
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“I know what it’s like to fall in love with God and serve him with all my heart.”
Well, maybe not ALL your heart, as there was a space He didn’t fill for you, and you kicked Him out
Yes, we all struggle with the question, why should I believe in God? I guess for you, you need to have logical consistency, and that’s what’s most important for you right now. Good luck. I’m glad you’re happy. I wonder why you weren’t as happy with God as you say you are now?
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This is a very interesting story. However I have a couple things to say. I was born in china. Religion is highly discouraged. My parents are not believers. I am highly confused. I was Christian but I believe it is because I needed that support. My life sucked when I was not Christian. After I embraced Christianity my life became so much better. However now I am unsure about God.
1)There are a couple things which make your statement, “there is no god” inconsistent.
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Firstly, I would like to know if you have studied Philosophy.
Secondly, If you have studied philosophy then you must have realized the four undeniable laws of logic/reason.
Thirdly, Ironically there is a reason that your reasoning cannot be trusted.
1)People either believe in a supernatural beginning or a natural beginning. So creation was either Personal or Impersonal.
2)People who believe in a supernatural beginning can claim that their logic and reasoning come from God.
3)People who believe in a Natural beginning have no way of trusting their own reason or logic.
Why?
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Simple.
People Who Believe in a naturalism must believe in natural selection. Natural selection is not at all concerned with what philosophers think about all the time. Truth. All natural selection is concerned with is survival. Therefore senses cannot be trusted. Even Richard Dawkins a very well known atheist albeit not an atheist well versed in philosophy, realizes that he cannot trust his senses. He states that he cannot disprove that the world we are living in is something like the matrix. Plus in a world set on survival our brain will trick us into believing whatever that will help our chance of survival. For example, a sick person will believe a pill will help his fever. However what the patient does not know is that the pill is a placebo. He or she takes the pill and the pain is reduced.
Simply our senses cannot be trusted in naturalism. Therefore you cannot trust your logic or reasoning.
The alternative is to say you cannot believe in anything but yourself. However not many people live that out internally consistently. If we do not believe in anything the there is no purpose to life. If there is no purpose to life then there is no purpose to live. Yet we still want to survive.
However after this entire arugment from reason (this argument is from C.S. Lewis and is agreed upon by Alvin Plantinga a very renown philosopher)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_Reason
still does not prove that there is a God. It just proves that you cannot believe in naturalism because that world view has a defeater.
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Essentially here i am stumped. I believe that this is my personal journey. and i will hope for an answer even though many people have not found one and those that have are not very convincing.
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I think its wrong to say this old argument is any kind of defeater for naturalism. It isnt. At best, it simply requires us to look upon all our beliefs with some skepticism…. but there’s nothing in the argument thats problematic for naturalism, specifically. It “undermines” any and all belief. There’s nothing compelling about the argument that would make us believe that all our beliefs are false. Its quite reasonable to believe natural selection might favor more accurate beliefs in some circumstances and less accurate beliefs in others – Plantinga or Lewis hardly have a solid case in that respect.
We just shouldn’t trust everything we think we know – I think thats a good thing. If there’s one position most naturalists and atheists don’t mind, its that of a skeptic.
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Additionally, any time an argument skirts so close to saying “If X is true, then X is false” as the evolutionary argument against naturalism does, one should be suspicious.
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drj, I understand where you are coming from. However, I believe that you are thinking illogically. If we can just say that everything has “some skepticism” then we are not looking for the truth. Essentially naturalism is then a half-assed conclusion.
This is not an argument that says all your beliefs are false. This is an argument questioning how can naturalists logically believe in anything without any basis?
I do understand that this argument does not prove God. I am just bringing this up to say that naturalism has no backing. Also most atheists are also naturalists.
When a person claims to be atheist there is something wrong with his or her reasoning. (well all atheists I have met so far)
How?
Well in order to believe in atheism the atheist must either know everything or
the atheist is illogical and has an incomplete theory that defies reason.
Give me a reason that shows me God does not exist. If an atheist can do that without saying something like, my experiences show me or god does not do anything ect ect it is just the same as a christian that say, i believe in god because of my experiences or god works in my life.
God is the author and we are in the book. we cannot prove that the author exists unless the author chooses to write himself and reveal himself to us. whether or not he has revealed himself is a huge question.
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Stone,
You may be interested to read Alvin Plantinga’s evolutionary argument against naturalism. He makes roughly the same argument you do, except in a philosophically rigorous way, and there has been a huge debate over his argument in the literature.
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If one is not skeptical about something, it would mean they have come to a conclusion… and hence, don’t have to “look for the truth” any longer, so I don’t see what you mean.
Well no, what the argument does is undermine all belief, not just naturalism. Plantinga does try to keep the blinders on so that you only focus on naturalism… but it touches everything. If one accepts the argument, it must inevitably lead to a deep pervasive skepticism.
As the addendum, Plantinga basically says “Does that lack of trust you must now have for your cognitive faculties SCARE you? Well, believe in Jesus and you can just pretend your beliefs are mostly true and sweep that skepticism under the rug where you can’t see it!”. But following along in that charade is really just an exercise in wishful thinking. Our beliefs might actually be mostly false! Simply indulging yourself to just throw that skepticism to the wind, in exchange for some unjustifiable, unwarranted certainty, is to – as you put it – “stop looking for the truth”.
But as I said earlier… I don’t think theres any good reason to accept that the truth of beliefs is so entirely disconnected with their utility – If you don’t accept that, then the argument amounts to little. Many true beliefs (but not necessarily all) should also provide optimum utility over false beliefs, hence be selected for by natural selection.
Not to mention, the theist must provide a compelling explanation for the tremendous amounts of false belief that exists – there sure is a hell of a lot of it. I think the job is far too big for weak and tired appeals to “a fallen creation”.
You should see the atheism FAQ on this site; it sounds like your arguing as if atheism requires that one assert that definitely NO god exists – which is inaccurate.
I don’t have too… I don’t claim gods do not exist… but if you tell me about your most compelling evidences for belief – I can explain why those probably don’t meet my standards for belief.
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Hi Luke!
Nice blog mate. i read about your story and i fully understand where you are coming from. I mean no disrespect to anyone but the bible and the christian belief in god defies logic. Obviously you believe that any idea of god defies logic and i can understand why.
But i feel you haven’t given islam a fair chance. I must say that the islam section of your blog is full of propaganda videos and contains very little regarding the actual theological beliefs of islam. For example did you know that islam believes in evolution (as well as creation).
Admittedly there are bad muslims (just as there are bad atheists, christians, jews). But have you actually studied the quran? If you haven’t done so yet, i would like to recommend it. you can read it as a comic book or whatever but please make an effort to read it sincerely, at least once.
In case you have read it and believe that it was written by Muhammad and is not the word of God, then i have a huge concern. In the quran, there are some very accurate descriptions of scientific facts which couldnt have come from an illiterate shepherd/merchant 1400 years ago. These facts were discovered only very recently. How would you explain their occurrence in the quran.
For reference please visit
http://www.scienceislam.com/quran_miracles.php
or a translation (with commentary if necessary) of the quran (transaltion by Yusuf Ali is recommended)
For comments of athiest scientists (mainly doctors) on the quran please watch the video ‘This is the Truth’ on youtube.
regards
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Abdur Rafay Zafar,
It is true I have not yet taken any time to seriously engage Islam. I would really like to find one book that mounts a serious case for the truth of Islam from the perspective of contemporary analytic philosophy and scientific inquiry, I just haven’t found it yet. Can your recommend such a book?
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I believe that everyone’s logic flows from desire.
-Mark Van Steenwyk
Boom. Mark is right.
Consider the finitude of your potential for mastering knowledge. The category of “mystery” is nearly infinite to you as an individual.
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Oh, I am quite aware of my finitude!
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Random thought; I was just thinking about this.
Here’s the order in which I realized certain things do not exist:
1. God and the supernatural.
2. Intrinsic value.
3. Free will.
4. The flow of time.
Scary! What next? The external world? Myself? Somebody let me off this train!
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Hey, Luke, I noticed your comment about Christianity being contaminated by Paul (”Christianity should be called Paulinism”). Have you seen the Witherington/Pagels piece below?
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/Scholarly-Smackdowndid-Paul-Distort-Christianity.aspx?p=1
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Hey Luke!
This may sound strange to you but I could really relate to your old Self. Why do you let an outdated “version of you” out there to fool people? I guess God hasn’t been teaching you for a while now…
Who am I kidding, I can perfectly understand your quest for a greater truth. I’ve been in one myself for 8 years now. I don’t consider myself christian anymore (not to mention catholic, which used to be my religion). However, unlike you, I turned to a sort of New Age belief system. It sounds terrible, I know.
But I think I know exactly what is good and what isn’t in the New Age Movement. It’s common sense there’s a lot of bullshit involved in those beliefs, but I’m sure I can find what makes true sense for me.
Have you ever heard of a book called A Course in Miracles? What are your thoughts on that? I feel this is the best truth I could find so far.
I guess my path was somewhat opposite to yours. When I was around 10 I simply told my mom I couldn’t believe in God, because I didn’t feel Him, didn’t see Him, couldn’t hear Him, not to mention understand Him. But one day, I don’t know exactly when or why, a switch was turned on inside my head (I wonder if it was that certain biological predisposition) and God became everything to me, the foundation of my existence. When I say God, I don’t mean that biblical nut and specially not Jesus. I was never able to accept the biblical Jesus, not even when I was being brainwashed in Sunday school with “Jesus is your best friend” over and over again. I remember thinking to myself – “I never even met the guy, how can I say he’s my friend?!” – and I rejected the idea that only he was the son of God, he the all-mighty Jesus who took all the power and left the rest of us feeling like 3rd class creations.
My belief was in a good God and not some two-faced freak, more like a sort of super human, with super flaws. This book, A Course in Miracles, was what finally helped me find a Jesus that is probably a lot like “your imaginary friend”, but free from the Bible contradictions and, lets be frank, cruelty. I think the historical Jesus can’t really be found in ancient records, those aren’t reliable. This might sound stupid, but I think the most reliable way to find the historical Jesus is through… some particularly gifted people, also known as psychics. xD Either that or information you get from somebody’s past-life, as in Brian Weiss’ past-lives therapy. Doesn’t it sound reliable? lol That’s the closest thing to time-travel!
Now I think of God as something very similar to air. It’s always there, and without it reality would simply shut down. Well, not the best comparison ever. I feel I can communicate with Him, even if not in a Neale Donald Walsch sort of way. I believe Jesus and the Holy Spirit share the same purpose, taking us back to God.
Well this is quite enough, I better wrap it up. I’ll be sure to bookmark your blog and pay you more visits. Thanks for sharing.
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Oh great, I just saw your review for Brian Weiss. LOL Oh well… xD I still wonder what you think of ACIM, but I don’t expect much.
All the best.
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Interesting… I wonder why you even bother making reviews about books on spirituality, motivation and success. I’ve seen almost half your list and found 2 good and 2 meh (which I never heard of) and those were about very practical down-to-earth issues.
I have a feeling that you’re a “go with the flow” sort of guy, and you’re my age so you’ll probably be reconsidering your beliefs (or your lack of beliefs) in the near future. I usually don’t make accurate prophecies, but this time, I might be onto something. I sincerely hope I’m right. :p
Oh, and where can the visitors take a decent look at your face?
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Zentu,
Click ‘About’ at the top of the page.
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Hi Luke. I just happened on your website today. I was actually referred here by someone from another atheist website where atheists struggle to communicate without vitriol, profanity, and/or vulgarity. I was told I might find more of an intelligent conversation here. So far I’m not disappointed. Thanks for hosting a civil site for people to debate these all important matters of life.
I have some things I’d like to add to this already great conversation thread. But first I’d like to say KUDOS to you for your courage. It must have been very hard to tell your Christian family that you were disembarking from the spiritual journey you had been on presumably since birth. Honesty is always the hardest thing, isn’t it? I’m sure you know firsthand what Billy Joel meant when he wrote, “Honesty, it’s such a lonely word..”
You are obviously honest. I have nothing but love for that. You’re true to yourself and you’re true to your family and friends. Not only do you have the courage to stand up and renounce your religion to them, you have the ‘nads to do the same in front of the whole world.. with your real name.. and crystal clear image of yourself plastered for all to see. That takes guts. Many of your atheist comrades aren’t so courageous.
That said, I’d be remiss if I didn’t say kudos to your mother and father for raising such an incredibly honest and courageous person. Your Christian parents and mentors apparently succeeded in teaching you one of the most important attributes of Christ’s character: his courage to walk the talk. What a great paradox it is that you so closely mirror the character traits of the messiah you claim to no longer believe in.
A bit about me: I’m a lifelong Catholic. I never stopped believing, but I definitely fell away from my faith for a good 10 years. During that time I came up with all sorts of crazy ideas, did a lot of drugs, drank a lot of alcohol, abandoned my church (save for the occasional holiday mass) and avoided anything remotely associated with organized religion. I rebelled and I rebelled hard. I may not have verbally renounced God, but my actions sure did. Hence, I can’t stand in judgment of you, because I have walked in your shoes.
I think I rebelled for the same reason I THINK you have rebelled: I didn’t know love, and therefore I didn’t know God. I knew sex, I knew emotions, I knew giving and receiving, but I didn’t know love. Don’t get me wrong; I don’t think it’s your fault. How can a child (even a teen) truly be in communion with the God of LOVE without experiencing the seasons of life as a grown adult? There is a very good reason most devout believers are generally those who have, e.g., survived catastrophes, or suffered immense loss, or survived near death experiences. Those ol’ “wretched sinners.” They are people who reached the end of their rope and had no choice but to cry out to God to help them. When these people say they were saved, they mean it.
I am not ashamed to say I am one such person. Many atheists of the Nietzsche ilk would say I’m weak, but they confuse weakness with humility. This is because they don’t know the difference between the two. How could they? If they’re always looking DOWN on everyone and everything, how can they see (let alone worship) what’s above them? I have come to believe humility is indeed the stuff love is made of. It is certainly the the character of Jesus. If you wanted to be more like Jesus, you should have simply went and mowed an elderly neighbor’s yard. Instead you hit the books. Sorry, but thaqt makes no sense. Jesus came to SERVE, not to be served. Didn’t you learn that from someone along the way?
I submit this is likely why God wasn’t anywhere to be found after you had turned your back on him: Scripture tells us God hides his face from the proud. Judging from your spirited story above, your quest to break away from God was one rooted in pride, and the outcome of that quest doesn’t surprise me at all. Pride? Yes, only a person overflowing with self righteous arrogance could ever possess the audacity to think they could command the almighty God, Creator of the universe, to reveal himself on command. You don’t order divine revelation like you would a happy meal. God isn’t part of the fast-food-serve-yourself-Google-it-world we live in.. in fact he is the antithesis of it. You’re supposed to rever the Creator of the universe. His earliest followers wouldn’t even say his name out loud. To love God is to fear him. You didn’t fear God, Lukje, you put yourself on his level.
God reveals himself over time. It took him 30 years to reveal himself to Jesus, yet you had the ‘nads–your nads are your best and worst friend, Luke–to want it all at 18 years old. But nope. Rejected. God’s only interested in the humble and the patient. He not only turns away from the proud and impatient, he abases them. What does that do? That only infuriates them all the more. Took me a long time to get my stubborn mind around that one. I kept asking myself who the %$@& God thought he was to tell me what to do and how to do it. And the more I asked that question, the further he pulled away from me.. until I was without him completely.. on my back in the cold, dark wilderness. Loveless, and nearly lifeless.
I still didn’t get it even then. I literally screamed at him one night: “What?? What did I do wrong?? Where are you???!!” His answer? The most soul-crushing answer of all to the lonely: SILENCE. Dead silence. I searched for answers, too. I wanted to know what gave him the right to kick me around? After enough misery I finally came to realize God did not exist and I would NEVER encounter him ….. as long I was determined to puff my chest out at him and demand he serve me. It was then that I suddenly came to terms with how alone I was. Wandering. Destitute. Lonely. Cold. Confused. Endlessly. I found out to be in hell is to be outside of the realm of love. Once you cross that threshold, you have no choice but to plead to Him for forgiveness. I wish you luck if that day comes for you. It is a scary one as millions of Christians can attest. It will take you within an inch of your life.. if it happens for you.
I believe you’ll probably find God for the first time when you come to terms with the fact that he is not in material things, nor good works, nor in the cross you paraded around with, nor in your flight to Europe to save the world, nor in the historical books you combed through in search of Him. God is in HUMANITY. He is in the human heart. The Conscience. The soul. God is the LOVE and the LIGHT of this world. He is in everything that is GOOD. To touch Him we need only touch another human being who is carrying his fire. Once you encounter His true love, his word will make perfect sense.
Luke, you seem like a wonderful person with a huge heart.There is nothing new about your story. Jesus already told it thousands of years ago in the parable of the Prodigal Son. I will pray he sends an angel to intercede to get you back on track where you family and friends, the people who love you so much, most likely are pining for you to be. Luke, all there is in this life is love. I’m twenty years older than you and I’m here to tell you NOTHING else matters. Step away from your site for a week or two and clear your head. Stop searching and just go serve everyone in your life selflessly without pause. That should get you on track to find the historical and eternal Jesus.
“Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man.”
Peace and love,
Mark
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Mark,
You are psychologizing my deconversion with very little information. I have tried to explain that while deconversion is usually a psychological matter and not an evidential one, in my case it was almost entirely evidential, because everything in my psychology was pulling me the other way. But I know that is very hard for believers to accept.
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Hi Luke
There is nothing psychological about pride and humility. We’re all prideful, some more than others. With all due respect, everything I have read in your story(and I just re-read it for good measure) smacks of pride–which has been mankind’s greatest stumbling block on the path to faith from day one, ground zero.
Rather than freely speak my mind and draw another label, I would like to address a random sampling of your testimony to demonstrate how I came to my conclusions about your “deconversion” (I have never heard that word).
You said: “What I learned, even when reading Christian scholars, shocked me. The gospels were written decades after Jesus’ death, by non-eyewitnesses. They are riddled with contradictions, legends, and known lies. Jesus and Paul disagreed on many core issues. And how could I accept the miracle claims about Jesus when I outright rejected other ancient miracle claims as superstitious nonsense?…..These discoveries scared me.”
Here are a few observations off the top of my head..
1) You were SHOCKED to find out the gospels were written decades after Jesus’ death. Shocked or sheltered? One could argue it’s shocking you grew up in a preacher’s home and never learned the Bible’s timeline. Were you also shocked to find out if taken literally the Bible is only some 6,000 years old?
2) You sought the counsel of “Christian Scholars” to understand Jesus. Why? What do they know about Jesus? If you truly had the faith you claim you had at the time, why didn’t you patiently await the Comforter? He promised He would reveal everything to you in due time. Was that a promise you were aware of it? Or was it another one you never bought into to begin with?
I read how you turned here, and turned there, and called people, and emailed people, and prayed, and tore through books in search of the answers you were seeking, (and even humbly vowed to allow the Spirit to “lead [you] into truth”), but nowhere do I read anything about a vow to simply WAIT on the Lord. To be PATIENT. To LONG SUFFER. Patience is one of the main fruits of the spirit (Gal 5:22).
Seems to me you weren’t in the mood to wait on the Lord. Seems more plausible that you were much more interested in getting out in the world and loving and living freely, in opposition to how you [presumably?] lived throughout your childhood. This leads me to believe “long suffering” was either a character trait of Christ’s you either didn’t know about, didn’t want to practice because you had more interesting things to do, or flat out rejected. Why? Because the next thing you state is: “It didn’t last.”
But WHAT didn’t last? I humbly submit YOU, Luke, didn’t LAST. This once again leads me to believe your faith was probably present, but not strong. In fact I submit it was young and weak and still forming when you decided to take it upon yourself to increase it (and “become more like Jesus”).
Perhaps you didn’t LAST because you didn’t have the patience to last. I would not be surprised to learn if you were a very impatient person by nature. (Takes one to know one
In any event, LASTING is the essence of long suffering. What you did was impose finite limits on long suffering. You may have had patience, but your patience had a limit, and when its limit was reached, when God failed to show up to your courtroom to defend himself, you announced him GUILTY AS CHARGED by all your scholars and mountains of evidence, and officially declared Him DEAD.
[You know Nietzsche famously declared God is Dead too, yes? And you know that he too was once a devout YOUNG Christian too, right? And you also know that absolute reasoning led Nietzsche precisely where Dr. Lane says it will lead one (to spiritual death), yes? In fact Nietzsche didn't just die, he first went absolutely insane. He died in the care of his mother and sister and is said to have been MISERABLE. All for what? Aspiration. Ambition. Pride. He aspired to be a "famous philosopher."]
I realize long-suffering is not a popular idea in our fast-food culture. Sadly we have to turn to beasts for great examples of it now. I saw one such superlative example recently when I watched “March of the Penguins.” How about them long-sufferin’ apples? The suffering starts when the sun stops coming out and every day is dark.. and the temperature drops below -80 degrees.. and winds reach 100+ MPH. They go 125 days without food before migration back to their food source. Watch these beasts huddle together to stay alive. Watch them lean NOT on themselves, but on each other. Survival of the fittest? Sure. But what does “the fittest” REALLY denote Mr. Spencer? In the case of the penguins it denotes ABIDANCE. Interesting how abidance is also the key requirement for the formation and survival of one’s faith, too.
3) You said “Every time I reached out for some reason – any reason – to believe, God simply wasn’t there. I tried to believe despite the evidence, but I couldn’t believe a lie. Not anymore.”
Can we just cut to the chase here? Why use euphemisms like “deconverted”? Can we just call a spade a spade and say you rejected God? And instead of punitively dismissing an argument on the basis that it doesn’t strictly adhere to this or that discipline, can we just say your rationale for dismissing God is due to the fact that he didn’t show up to defend himself at the trial you scheduled for him?
Let’s go over this step by step. By your own admission you had faith in God, yes? You believed in him and prayed to him and served him, right? But then you stumbled upon some information you deemed as potentially damning to his credibility. By your own admission this damning evidence “scared” and “shocked” you. Your conundrum only intensified when the evidence kept streaming in .. deposition after deposition.. fingerprints.. documents.. exhibit after exhibit. “Where are you God? Show yourself! Disprove this lot! I command you!”
You held a trial, and God didn’t show up for it. Hence you didn’t get the answers you demanded. You got stood up. All you got was silence. You roamed the halls looking for him but he was nowhere to be found. At this point it seems you were angry. You felt defrauded. Bamboozled. You had no other choice but to reject God.
I find it very unfortunate you took God’s silence to mean he didn’t exist, or that he was rejecting you, when in fact silence is a very real response from God. It means he wants you to THINK. To REST. To mediate. Or maybe to go another direction. Perhaps of all the responses you had come to know from him, you never learned about that one. I know I had to learn it the hard way, too. I thank God I had a good teacher to help me make sense of it when it happened.
As for your faith, I submit that if you stopped believing because God SIMPLY didn’t APPEAR, then that means your belief in him was never truly rooted in strong faith….. because had it been, you wouldn’t have demanded God defend or reveal himself in a form your eyes would find satisfactory. You literally demanded a faith-based God to be a sight-based one.. for you. And when he rejected your request you rejected him. Right? You don’t see the prideful arrogance in that?
I truly wish you would have WAITED on God instead of put finite limits on his response time. He would have refuted your body of evidence with a wave of his hand had you allowed him to. He would have deleted every ounce of “shock” and “fright” you were experiencing.. if you had only waited on him.
I hope you will reconsider. You still have so much to learn about God’s character. It would be tragic to see you completely abandon your faith before you even understood a fraction of it.
Peace and love,
Mark
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Luke,
What do you mean? Click on “about me”? Well it’s the same picture… Or is it about the other things I said?
BTW, are you an aquarian? xD
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Zentu,
Oh, you mean you don’t think my picture here and at About Me is a decent look at my face?
I don’t know what an aquarian is.
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Yes, exactly. When I make faces sometimes I remind people of Mr. Bean and I’m nothing like him (I think… or hope). Aquarian as in zodiacal sign. “A person born under the sign of Aquarius”. You know… were you born between January 20 and February 18? I’m sure you’re sure that astrology is BS, but I’d like to check if your zodiacal sign has a set of characteristics that matches what I’ve been reading about you. Bottom line, I’m just curious.
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I was born on June 22.
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Ok. If you had been born a day earlier I could make some sense out of all this (Gemini) but you’re Cancer. It really sounds bad in English, maybe that’s why here in Portugal we call it “crab”. Then again, I’m no expert. Some say Cancer natives are emotional, intuitive, unable to let go, etc. I don’t see any of it. Maybe I’m wrong. But one thing is for sure. It doesn’t matter. lol
Sorry for wasting your time. xD
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Hi, I stumbled upon your site while looking for some stuff on infinite regression theory. I was blown away! All this stuff that so many people seem to be so excited about. Who is this Jesus guy? Where can I meet him/her? And please give me more information about what exactly a God is? Do they have a website where I can read more? Am I correct in thinking that this is like some kind of new wave alternative to the quantum ‘everything popped out of nothing’ origin theory? Wow! I have read about these things. In particular there was one fun one about how the world was born from the rear end of a very big snake. I do hope this new version doesn’t take away my right to disappear totally once I die.
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Nice thoughts here…I quote you….
“Here’s the order in which I realized certain things do not exist:
1. God and the supernatural.
2. Intrinsic value.
3. Free will.
4. The flow of time.
Scary! What next? The external world? Myself? Somebody let me off this train!
”
The first 2 are reasonably obvious and easy to get a picture of. (4) re Time, takes a while, you have got to read a lot around it before you start to feel that Time does not actually exist in the normal construct as in ‘the arrow of time’.
(3) or Free Will is more elusive. Whilst the deterministic argument is easy to apply, once you get your head around basic quantum physics concepts and contradictions it becomes clear that Free Will (and consciousness) may well be products of the fundamental nondeterministic and parallel potentialities of the quantum realm…..I am still getting my head around this one. Have fun! (ps…it’s always far more exciting to try to understand what we don’t know rather than to just accept some arb explanation.)….Wait….there’s a glistening leaf tumbling past my window….wow! what a moment of sheer joy. Isn’t nature wonderful!
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I don’t understand your first comment on this post, Andre.
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When I was 15 or 20 I cut off the church although I did get married at age 21 in the church to please my mother. Even earlier than that I wondered why Jesus appeared in a small mid-east area 2000 years ago and not now in NYC. Odd. A good reason for leaving is I didn’t want any sanctimonious authority figure telling me what to do with my penis. Subsequently I found 1001 more reasons why I was correct. Hallelujah, PTL.
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Hey! I should be in part of your story…. I don’t see my name anywhere
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Lol, Elizabeth! Well now you know where much of my time has gone…
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Hi from Croatia.
I must admit that I didn’t read the whole story, and I didn’t read all the comments, but it’s great that you wrote about your personal struggle, and I am very thankful for that. I don’t know if it was hard for you to write about personal details, but you proved once again that you were a true believer and that you didn’t want to stop to believe, like some apologets love to claim for those who stopped believing (”He wasn’t a true believer!” “He didn’t have Jesus in his heart!” and so forth…)
Thank you man, your link deserved to be placed on my web site.
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Compelling deconversion story, Luke. Thanks for sharing it with the world.
I’ve never commented here, but I visit your site several times a week. You set the standard for atheist blogs, my friend. I maintain a blog for a secular student group at Utah State University, so I can appreciate all the time you put into your site. You’re incredibly prolific and always thoughtful.
As an ex-Mormon in Utah, I write primarily about Mormonism. Should you ever be interested to grace my site, here’s the link: http://usu-shaft.com/
Take care and keep up the great work, Luke!
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Thanks, Jon!
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I notice this a lot. I think this is just one of many reasons why churches should strive to be as honest as possible, if they really want to keep people. If you had grown up with the doubts already added into the story, it probably wouldn’t have hit you so hard. It doesn’t mean you would have made a different decision, but it might have made it a lot easier.
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The first thing i love to tell u that u are the first atheism i know that love to speak about god and Jesus (even if for their non existence) and now i really feel that they exist because of u.
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I love your blog! Welcome to the big ‘A’ club! I do understand that it is not always easy to throw away the indoctrination of our religious childhoods. I was raised by my Assembly of God family (grandfather = pastor, father=unordained minister) and was sent to a private Baptist school. Trust me, if there is a hell; I’ve done my time!! I’ve always been a nonbeliever, however, due to the teachings of my childhood I was stunted in growth by thinking that I couldn’t be a ‘truly’ good person unless I believed. It was tortureous to say the least. There was a lot of self inflicted doubt of my goodness and ability to be a productive citizen. That is all far behind me now, and I’m free, godless, productive, and a good person!
It can be a long journey for some, and while I don’t wish anyone the pain of self confliction; I am glad that you have pulled through it.
Welcome to the otherside,
Kelli
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Wow, your background and journey out of Christianity sound almost identical to mine. I was a true believer (Church of Christ) until I realized at around age 14 that although I “prayed without ceasing,” God wasn’t communicating with me at all. I heard nothing but silence. I thought I must be doing something wrong. I struggled with depression and guilt for the next 5 or 6 years. At around age 20, I decided to find out as much as I could about the historical Jesus. I read everything I could get my hands on. You’re absolutely right; the Christian books were nothing but weak arguments and handwaving. The arguments given by non-believers were clear and made perfect sense to me. When my questions were met with responses like, “His ways are mysterious,” I knew that my pastor, teachers, and parents had no more answers to give. That just wasn’t good enough for me.
I’m now a happy, well-adjusted, 33-year-old atheist. I love life. I realize how precious it is. I still love reading, writing, and talking about religion and am waiting for Christians to come up with some new arguments.
Thanks for sharing your story. You have an excellent blog here.
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Jen,
So glad to hear you left that depression and guilt behind!
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It is admirable of you to have become an atheist on legitimate merits. Too often one hears stories of authoritarian religious upbringings which lead to atheism, my first thought was always “what if their negative experiences had been from atheism?”. As little as i think of religion i have more respect for a person who is a christian because their thought lead them to believing in god, than an atheist who wound up there because of thuggish or insensitive behavior on the part of the religious towards them. I myself went to a catholic private school for most of my pre university years and it made atheists out of a good deal of it’s student body. I have always been an atheist in the sense that i never could really believe, deep down, that there was a god. It took me considerably longer to fully realize that i had only been religious in the social sense, more like i was part of an organization of whose standards i had to meet in order to belong. I even attacked atheists and non christians, but always there was the gnawing internal skepticism.
Your story is especially impressive in the sense that you made a true conversion, it wasn’t merely a “coming out” experience as it is for many. I’ve often lampooned christians for being mawkish and seemingly “in love” with their idea of god. Atheist friends of mine who have had similar experiences to yours have told me that i can’t understand because i’ve never been a true blue believer. But they did use almost the exact same wording, it was like a close friend or family member was dying. I’ve since stopped mocking christians for this since apparently they really do feel this way.
Best wishes, i found your story refreshing.
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Thanks, AbyssGazer.
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In a hideous world only the blind are blessed. Welcome to the world of the sighted Luke.
I have no conversion story similar to your own so perforce I shan’t be sharing that with you. I have read through the comments on this thread and I continue to be amazed that people point you to their book of choice as a source for ‘Truth’. Just because someone wrote something down doesn’t make it true and the longer ago they wrote it down doesn’t mean that it accumulates truth with age like a fine wine or cheese.
Granted my senses are not 100% reliable, but I want to see one of these ‘can’t trust your senses’ folks step in front of a bus that their sight and hearing says is there. I suspect they’ll suddenly start trusting their senses.
None of my senses have ever detected a god, demon, devil, faerie, unicorn etc and to my knowledge no machine has been constructed that can detect them so their existence can be described as theoretical at best. But hey, if the ten-headed dragons start coming up out of the sea I’ll readjust my world view.
I’d like to say that my realistic world view has led to greater happiness, but alas it hasn’t. No fault of atheism I think. I hope that your own nature is more capable of joy and at the very least you don’t need to fret that a majority of our species is hellbound.
Peace.
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Interesting story thanks Luke. I was led here via an atheist twitter link.
I dabbled briefly with conservative Christianity and had a longer period as a liberal Christian. I’m quite happy to be an atheist now. There’s a lot less guilt
More importantly, I think atheism gives you a chance to define what your goals are and to aim for them. You’re not tied down to fulfilling someone else’s goals. Plus, while reason and rationality aren’t perfect, they’re the best tools you’ve got to navigate life.
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Wow, those are some awesome photos on your site, chthoniid.
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while i can relate rather well to your upbringing (I was raised Baptist in rural Alabama), I think it’s mildly offensive that you assume all gay people “lost their faith for irrational, emotional reasons.” I do have to admit that being gay probably led me to question my faith sooner than I otherwise might have, but I, like you, found myself still grasping for some reconciliation between reality and religion long after I pretty much knew it was impossible.
you shouldn’t assume you know the motivations of an entire segment of the population. and besides, most gay people I know are still at least vaguely religious.
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tremorfan,
I don’t particularly believe that or defend it. I was just telling the story of what popped into my head at the time.
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Thanks for the comment re: photos Luke.
As a biologist, it was very difficult to be a conservative Christian when that meant having to join “Team Creationist”. Anybody who believe that dinosaurs were contemporaneous with humans, loses all credibility as an adherent to the truth.
The biology helps with the photos, as the first step to taking wildlife photos is being able to find the wildlife
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Hi Lukeprog,
I noticed that you spend a lot of time deconstructing William Lane Craig’s arguments. I am a fan of this site for that reason. I find trying to identify the holes in his “deceptively simple” arguments to be intellectually stimulating.
His well crafted arguments do nothing to convince me to become a christian however. There are too many absurdities inherent in the bible and christian doctrine for me to accept.
I doubt that Craig has converted many atheists. I imagine that his appologetics are mainly geared at “stop-loss” of believers. At reassuring them that atheism is not the more intellectual position (he has said this in so many words in one of his interviews). So I think that he has probably dedicated most of his career to people who are in your former position.
So my question is, during your deconversion, what effect did Craig’s books have on you? Did you read any of them during that period of your life?
You say:
“the Christian philosophers were lost in a fog of big words that tried to hide the weakness of their arguments.”
If you did read Craig, I would love to hear what your take on him was as someone who was desperately trying to cling to belief
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Yeah, I read lots of Craig during my deconversion. I suppose I’ll write about the details sometime on this blog. Thanks for your question.
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I can’t believe the number of Christians who are crawling out of the woodwork to try to win you back to Christianity. It’s as if none of them can conceive of anyone else living a happy and fulfilling life without being devoted to their enthusiasms. And that’s probably the case. If they could conceive of being happy and fulfilled outside the strictures of revealed religion, then their dogmatism would be more difficult to sustain.
I happen to like the novels of Paul Bowles but I’m not running around pushing The Sheltering Sky on everyone or leaving copies in hotel and hospital rooms. Perhaps it’s just an effect of being raised without religion, but I cannot conceive of bothering people who don’t need it with unsolicited advice. That is the height of rudeness.
It makes me wonder which group is more annoying: Christians or Objectivists. Granted, not every Christian is an enthusiast, but neither is every Objectivist.
Anyway, kudos for you making up your own mind, even when that was wrenching, and even more for remaining polite to dozens of proselytizers hovering over here like vultures.
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Hi Luke,
I really appreciate your openness. I’m at the other end of life, in my 60s, and have in recent years stepped outside of my faith and taken a long hard look at it. This faith had been very strong and was uppermost in all my life choices. I even served as a missionary for some time in third world countries. I have drawn similar conclusions to yours, but haven’t told anyone else, except for my husband (of 5 years) who is not a believer.
Some of the kindest, nicest most beautiful people I know are believers (Christians and Muslims). It grieves me to think they will not understand that I have left it all behind. My younger son and his girlfriend are devout Christians (thanks to my upbringing in the case of my son).
I just don’t find any of the reasons/evidence Christians give to be believable or often, even rational.
The major turning point for me was a video, 99 Balloons. It sent me looking at babies born to suffer and I just can’t see that a god who loved and cared would dream of allowing or even doing such things to innocent babies and their families. There’s much more to my decision than that, but this was the emotional part of it.
I’d better stop there for now. I don’t want to write a novel!
I feel more free and more at peace with myself these days than I ever did as a Christian. I’m just distraught about telling my Christian friends and relatives.
Thanks for the encouragement your site provides me with.
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Doubting Thomasina,
Thanks for sharing.
Is the 99 balloons video you speak of available online anywhere?
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99 balloons is on YouTube – just type in the search box:
“99 balloons eliot”
I looked at several of the Related Videos from the 99 Balloons page and it really upset me to see so many babies born to suffer. I had no idea about some of the horrendous conditions that exist!
A Christian’s response: “suffering in the world does not prove there is no god. Everything else in the world shouts out that God made everything in this world, including people. The suffering is the result of sin and satan’s wreaking havoc. That is why God allowed his Son to die for us- to allow us a way out of this sin-ridden world if we will trust in Him alone!”
I would have said – actually, I did say – the same thing as a Christian, but now I’m not buying it!
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Thanks. That was sad and frustrating.
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