News Bits
John Loftus is really good at tracking down former pastors and apologists who have recently left religion behind. Here’s another.
I’ve often thought that a major harm of conservative Christianity is its “true love waits” policy and its subservient role for women. A tear-jerking example is provided by former preacher’s wife Laura the Redheaded Skeptic (1, 2, 3, 4).
I added 14 new debates to the atheism vs. theism debates page.
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“I’ve often thought that a major harm of conservative Christianity is its “true love waits” policy.”
Luke,
When I see statements like this from atheists it really makes me question whether their atheism is really the product of an objective look at the evidence or if there aren’t moral struggles that are part of it. This statement seems ad hominem, but I don’t really mean it that way. I’m trying to understand the thought process of atheists. They are vary insistent that one can live moral lives without God, but yet are very quick to change morality.
I guess the Christian teaching on sexual monogamy just makes so much sense to me.
1) There is the relationship aspect of sex. Sex brings two people physically and emotionally together. There is a chemical released in the brain called oxytocin which adds in this emotionally bonding process. There is emotional pain when the relationship is severed.
2) Marriage provides a stable relationship for the raising of children. Babies are the product of sex.
3) monogamy reduces STDs.
Encouraging safe sex can help solve 2 and 3, but it does nothing to 1. The problem with birth control, is that in a large population, even a small failure rate can turn into a lot of unwanted pregnancies. Brian G
Yes, but add to birth control widely available abortion and the problem of unwanted pregnancies becomes quite small (I’d guess). And of course the waiting for marriage aspect adds in dangers of sexual incompatibility, which can doom a marriage and destabilize the resulting child’s environment.
Which is not to say I think the Christian view is wrong. I remain firmly agnostic and make what decisions I do based on personal taste.
NB: Attacking sexual restraint mores will do nothing to help Luke shake the view that his moral stance is warmed over hedonism. Scott Scheule
I think there is less oxytocin released if it turns out you and your partner are not compatible. . . just from personal experience. ;) Laura
Brian G,
When I see statements like this from atheists it really makes me question whether their atheism is really the product of an objective look at the evidence or if there aren’t moral struggles that are part of it.
This is something that I think about quite a bit as well. I have three friends — all gifted thinkers — who left Christianity for agnosticism/atheism, and all three had decided prior to their deconversion that they simply did not want to maintain the Christian ideal for sexual morality. Of course, they never admitted as much, but I sometimes wonder whether their willingness to live in open disobedience did not affect their intellectual honesty. In other words, their ability to remain objective was seriously called into question.
I do not think that I am merely assuming, or that I am impugning their motives. I say this because I too struggle with Christian sexual morality — the combination of being a young man with a healthy libido and being attractive to women has wreaked havoc in my life — and I’ve noticed over and over again the correlation between sexual sin and doubt. In fact, it seems to me that it rises above a simple correlative relationship; sexual sin seems to have some sort of causal relationship to doubt. That has been my experience. Take it for what it’s worth.
I am currently considering the arguments against Christianity. This is something that I should do if I’m seeking to be intellectually honest. But I still question my motives all the time. Do I really find the arguments compelling, or am I seeking ‘liberation’ from perceived ‘oppressive’ moral constraints? To put it crassly, am I looking to bang as many women as I can without being burdened by a guilty conscience? A
I’m sure doubters come in many varieties. I converted away from Christianity in my early teens without, as far as I can remember, giving any thought to Christian sexual morality. Then, as things played out, I’ve only ever had one girlfriend and we’ve now been happily married for five years. Haukur
My experience in the church was that most Christian sexual morals were just some of those unreasonable rules you could break. Everyone was having sex before marriage, most everyone (married or not) was using birth control, etc.
I’ve seen plenty of studies that show that the promiscuity level among the religious isnt all that different than the secular.
Point is, it seems quite effortless to live in total contradiction with Christian sexual morals, and still be Christian. drj
I think there’s a third variable here in a lot of cases. In many situations, it’s teenagers/young adults that are figuring out their belief systems. And that time of life is obviously one filled with heightened hormonal levels and an increased sex drive. I won’t deny that perhaps it has effects on one’s objectivity, but it’s important to remember when saying that desire to have sex may cause people to question restrictive moral beliefs. Likely it’s a certain time of life causing both.
With that said, I don’t know where I stand on monogamy, etc. The research tends to show that there are certain mechanisms present in healthy relationships that cause “positive illusions” – seeing one’s partner as better than he/she really is (or how he/she sees him/herself). So Laura, you may be correct or incorrect – oxytocin may be released and cause you to bond to your partner, and then that bonding process causes you to perceive him/her as more compatible, attractive, etc. We need to be clear at which comes first here, and I’m not sure that’s an easy thing to pick apart. Jeff H
drj,
A few studies I’ve read were actually congruous with what Bill Maher reported on one of his comedy shows which is susequently on DVD now, the pointade was (if memory serves):
Young women making abstinence vows and usually adorned with the ring to be properly identified as such were twice as likely to give blow jobs and 4 times as likely to give anal. Because that’s not penetrating the Jesus hole and is, as I’ve come to understand the moral acrobatics of these devout young women, totally absent of compunction. More power to them, I guess. I mean, if the priest’s get to “dick around”…
Abstinent since 12:40pm 12/23/09,
J. Jake de Backer
lukeprog: “I’ve often thought that a major harm of conservative Christianity is its “true love waits” policy”
I’m sorry, but that’s absurd. It may be unrealistic to expect teens and young adults to be able to resist today’s pro-promiscuity culture, but a cost/benefit analysis of the evidence results in an overwhelming advantage for pre-marital abstinence (I thought atheists were pro-evidence?–if oxycontin levels is the best the other side can point to as the “advantage” of pre-marital sex, that is very, very weak). See:
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS06B01&f=WA06C05 ayer
Thanks for the link, ayer. Some of that is true, but some of it is contradicted by much larger studies I know of. For example. lukeprog
That study addresses a different issue–i.e., whether people are even capable of pre-marital abstinence. As I said, they may not not be in today’s culture. But the evidence clearly shows that they would be better off in many, many ways if they were capable of practicing it. ayer
Off-topic:
I wish I had the money to own a copy of World Christian Encyclopedia. Here it is on Human Need and Development in the USA, page 774:
And on separation of church and state, page 778:
Future Trends and Prospects for the USA, page 781:
lukeprog
The story of the unfortunate marriage of the ‘Redhead Skeptic’ is a story as old as the religious hypocrisy in the Gospels – the one that takes center stage and that ultimately takes Jesus’ life. It is a re-staging of that very drama. Anthropologically speaking why do you think the Word chose that drama to begin with?
Using Jesus’ name as a weapon in our worldly projects is horrific I understand, but pointing to the standard of the gospel in admonition is the best remedy; not (in a self serving manner) doing away with objective standards.
When every major institution in the US has been subverted from within by committed Marxists since Gramsci’s project began after WWII it is as conformist to join the herd as an evangelist for unbelief as it is conformist to treat with the superficial religion you experienced growing up as one would treat with an idol.
Jesus’ humanity – authenticity, fidelity, renunciation, discipline – is hard work, and painful. Christians avoid this searching hard work because they are human and sinners, not because Christianity is inherently anti-human. Martin