Christians and Atheists Compared

by Luke Muehlhauser on January 4, 2010 in Christian Theology,General Atheism

Recommended background music: Play the song “Olympians” in another browser tab while reading this post.

christians and atheists compared

Similarities

…probably wants to increase world happiness and reduce suffering. … probably wants to increase world happiness and reduce suffering.
…holds thousands of beliefs for which she has no well-tested evidence. …holds thousands of beliefs for which she has no well-tested evidence.
…often makes irrational decisions. …often makes irrational decisions.
…may or may not believe in free will. …may or may not believe in free will.
…may believe any number of things about morality. …may believe any number of things about morality.
…almost certainly holds some beliefs that logically contradict other beliefs she holds. …almost certainly holds some beliefs that logically contradict other beliefs she holds.
…is plagued by over a dozen powerful cognitive biases. …is plagued by over a dozen powerful cognitive biases.
…may believe any number of things about who the Historical Jesus was. …may believe any number of things about who the Historical Jesus was.
…may be anywhere from extremely intelligent to frightfully stupid. …may be anywhere from extremely intelligent to frightfully stupid.
…is probably outraged by some religious beliefs and practices. …is probably outraged by some religious beliefs and practices.
…may have any range of beliefs about evolution, cosmogony, and the nature of spacetime. …may have any range of beliefs about evolution, cosmogony, and the nature of spacetime.
…may hold any of several views about metaphysics. …may hold any of several views about metaphysics.
…may or may not have a highly positive view of science. …may or may not have a highly positive view of science.
…may or may not believe in absolute truth. …may or may not believe in absolute truth.
…holds many beliefs and attitudes out of trust, not evidence. …holds many beliefs and attitudes out of trust, not evidence.
…may hold any of several views about the historicity of the Bible. …may hold any of several views about the historicity of the Bible.
…sometimes acts against her own moral principles. …sometimes acts against her own moral principles.
…can be angry, satisfied, sad, happy, lazy, or industrious at different times. …can be angry, satisfied, sad, happy, lazy, or industrious at different times.
…often makes assertions about topics she knows relatively little about. …often makes assertions about topics she knows relatively little about.
…may live in a bubble of like-minded friends or have many friends with diverse beliefs. …may live in a bubble of like-minded friends or have many friends with diverse beliefs.
…may or may not regularly doubt her own worldview. …may or may not regularly doubt her own worldview.

Differences

…believes in a god. … doesn’t believe in a god.

The ratio of similarities to differences here reminds me of the comparison of believers and atheists with respect to which gods they do and don’t believe in.

Previous post:

Next post:

{ 80 comments… read them below or add one }

Reginald Selkirk January 4, 2010 at 6:26 am

But the atheist has larger breasts. Game over.

  (Quote)

Jake de Backer January 4, 2010 at 7:00 am

I, too, may be missing the forest but atheist girl is at least 2 points (out of 10) hotter. That was the point you were trying to make wasn’t it?

Message received,
J.

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 4, 2010 at 7:13 am

*sigh*

I will never get through to you lecherous buffoons.

:)

  (Quote)

Torgo January 4, 2010 at 7:19 am

Yeah, Luke. You really dropped the ball here. How can you drop two hotties into the middle of the sausage-fest that is the comments on your blog and expect us to get the real point?

  (Quote)

Mark January 4, 2010 at 7:49 am

Who are these girls and have they consented to you using their likeness here?

  (Quote)

Richard H January 4, 2010 at 8:30 am

These sorts of lists fall flat for me.

Yes, every person has some irrational beliefs. Every legal system will have some injustice. Every human institution has flaws.

But, I would not accept, “human institutions cannot be perfect,” as a justification for not trying to improve them when possible.

I would not accept, “our legal system will never be perfect,” as a reason to allow an injustice to continue.

And I do not accept, “my rationality will never be perfect,” as a reason to not critically examine questionable beliefs.

  (Quote)

Marco January 4, 2010 at 8:32 am

I too vote right (she looks like a godess)

  (Quote)

krissthesexyatheist January 4, 2010 at 8:53 am

This is a great post. I can’t believe that there are believers out there that think we (atheists) do not have/believe what is common for all humans. Because we don’t have that magic laser from God beaming down morals and kindness does not mean that we do not have those characteristics. Great post.

And to the sexist pigs, keep your sexism to yourself.

Kriss

  (Quote)

Angie the Anti-Theist January 4, 2010 at 9:21 am

This is what I’ve been trying to say for a long time. We’re not all liberal, not all American, not all scientists, and not all male.

Know the best way to keep a sausage fest a sausage fest? Objectify women :D

  (Quote)

Penneyworth January 4, 2010 at 9:30 am

HAHAHA! Attempting choose which one of these ho’s is hotter doesn’t fool anyone. You boys would readily saw off an arm to be with either of them. :)

  (Quote)

Reginald Selkirk January 4, 2010 at 10:11 am

Angie the Anti-Theist: We’re not all liberal, not all American, not all scientists, and not all male.

True, but some of us are all liberal, all American, all scientist and all male.

  (Quote)

philosophicalinquirer January 4, 2010 at 10:41 am

Luke,

I have visited your website for a while and like it a lot. I am particularly impressed with how charitable you are with your opponents. I too contribute to a blog and both of us are agnostics. While we don’t believe that there is good evidence for the existence of anything like the god of Christianity we see some value in the Bible. Please read some of the entries and tell me what you think. The entry on Nietzsche and Morality has received the most attention.

-philosophicalinquirer

  (Quote)

Walter January 4, 2010 at 10:52 am

Penneyworth: HAHAHA! Attempting choose which one of these ho’s is hotter doesn’t fool anyone. You boys would readily saw off an arm to be with either of them.   

Damn right I would!

  (Quote)

John D January 4, 2010 at 12:50 pm

That’s a really good list of comparisons. Should be shown at the start of debates or discussions on religion. Would be quite disarming and might get things off to a more explorative or inquisitive start, rather than the typical attack-and-defence approach. I can’t imagine any Christians or atheists would deny anything on the list.

A question arises:
Do you know the people in the photograph? No, don’t worry: I’m not looking for their numbers or anything. I am just wondering whether they might get upset if you are mislabeling their philosophical views (assuming you don’t know them).

  (Quote)

Lee A. P. January 4, 2010 at 12:53 pm

Penneyworth: HAHAHA! Attempting choose which one of these ho’s is hotter doesn’t fool anyone. You boys would readily saw off an arm to be with either of them.   (Quote)

Just not the 3rd arm. Zing!

Thank, you I’ll be here all week.

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 4, 2010 at 1:27 pm

Richard,

I certainly have not proposed that we do not critically examine questionable beliefs! I have an entire blog devoted to that!

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 4, 2010 at 1:36 pm

Angie,

Hey, it wasn’t me who objectified all these women. It was the local sausaged readership!

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 4, 2010 at 1:37 pm

philosophicalinquirer,

Thanks.

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 4, 2010 at 1:38 pm

I have no idea who the people in the photograph are. I just found a picture of two people hugging to illustrate my point.

  (Quote)

Rich January 4, 2010 at 2:05 pm

The correct answer is:

Both. Simultaneously.

But Atheism will always be painted as Ginger to Theism’s Mary-Ann.

  (Quote)

Rich January 4, 2010 at 2:08 pm

philosophicalinquirer: Luke,I have visited your website for a while and like it a lot. I am particularly impressed with how charitable you are with your opponents. I too contribute to a blog and both of us are agnostics. While we don’t believe that there is good evidence for the existence of anything like the god of Christianity we see some value in the Bible. Please read some of the entries and tell me what you think. The entry on Nietzsche and Morality has received the most attention.-philosophicalinquirer  (Quote)

(A)gnosticism adresses the epistomological question; “Can man know (about god)”

To Quote BR:

http://www.luminary.us/russell/atheist_agnostic.html

” never know whether I should say “Agnostic” or whether I should say “Atheist”. It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it. As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God.

On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.

None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof.

Therefore, in regard to the Olympic gods, speaking to a purely philosophical audience, I would say that I am an Agnostic. But speaking popularly, I think that all of us would say in regard to those gods that we were Atheists. In regard to the Christian God, I should, I think, take exactly the same line. ”

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 4, 2010 at 7:18 pm

Hello Luke,

GREAT Comparisons which I submit are most certainly true for nearly all people.
(More on this below)

HI RICH,

I do not consider it difficult to say your are an “Atheist” or an “Agnostic” at all.

I AM an AGNOSTIC as there is NO way for me to actually KNOW if there is one or more gods or not.

And, I AM an ATHEIST as I do NOT “BELIEVE” in a god, or gods.

Therefore, logically, rationally & factually, I AM, an AGNOSTIC ATHEIST.

During my 75 years ** I’ve both met others who figured out on their own they were Agnostic Atheists and I have convinced others of the validity of saying they are both.

**(About 68 years as non-believer & over 50 years as an Activist for the total separation of Church and State)

I even met a “thinking” theist who identified himself as an AGNOSTIC THEIST.

————-

Next, while I do not know about others, I know I make Very Few, if Any assertions about topics I know relatively little, to nothing about.

NOR do I hold ANY beliefs which logically contradict any other of my beliefs as doing is Irrational, Illogical and Less than Intelligent.

  (Quote)

Rich January 4, 2010 at 8:29 pm

Neil C. Reinhardt: Therefore, logically, rationally & factually, I AM, an AGNOSTIC ATHEIST.

Me also.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 4, 2010 at 9:48 pm

Hi Rich,

GOOD ON YOU!

I’m constantly mystified what is so difficult
to understand about why EVERYONE IS EITHER an Agnostic Theist OR they are an Agnostic Atheist! And yet more than a few Atheists are seemingly unable to gasp such a simple, straight forward concept.

——————-

When I clicked on your name and went to your discussion forum, I saw where some one had posted the following comment: (Which I edited a bit as I hate the use of the word “that” when it is not needed or the word “which” would be better. And, as the word “but” is constanly misused, I also got rid of it.)

“While I’m not a fan of Fox News, the thing which is so ridiculous about this is Fox is more balanced – and has been objectively confirmed to be more balanced – than the other cable news networks and/or the Lame Stream media in general. Even liberals who doubted this couldn’t credibly do so any longer once CNN took it upon itself to fact-check an SNL skit for the crime of being insufficiently reverential.”

To be blunt, I am more experienced and more knowledge than are nearly all of those who my age much less anyone younger and I live my life as I define science. Which is:

“Science is the ever-expanding, on-going, never- ending and self-correcting search for truth”

I go where the evidence and the facts take me. It makes no difference if they support my previously
held views or not as I am not adverse about changing my position on ANY subject IF there is sufficient proof I should.

So as a person who constantly searches for the truth and assures having sufficient knowledge of the facts before supporting something, I am a extremely strong supporter of the Iraq War. Due to this, I have been repeatedly accused of watching Fox News.

Which is total BS as I hardly ever watched at all before being accused of doing so and I still very rarely watch it. That said, more than one study conducted by some non-biased sources and my own limited viewing of Fox News have proven to me they are LESS biased than ABC, BBC, CBS, CNN and NBC.

I served in the National Guard and/or the Active Army Reserves for over six years and on Active Duty in the regular Army for over three years, mostly as a paratrooper in the 101st Airborne.

So anyone who thinks I (as well as many other intelligent & knowledgeable vets) would support a war in which our fellow service people were fighting, bleeding and dying IF I did not, beyond ANY doubt, KNOW both Fully Justified & Necessary part of our War On Terror, is a TOTAL IDIOT!

For Luke’s benefit. our “War on Terror” MEANS we are AT war with ALL of the Terrorists who’ve been killing Americans and our friends for OVER THIRTY Years.

It ALSO means we are at war with ALL those who support terrorists LIKE IRAQ DID for MANY years,

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 4, 2010 at 10:04 pm

Neil,

Are we at war with the terrorists supported by the US government, too? Or just non-US-supported ones? I don’t get it.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 5, 2010 at 2:19 am

Well Luke,

Based on some of your TOTALLY ASININE comments made in email’s to me, I really DOUBT you have A CLUE what REAL terrorists are.

So I shall edify you. I believe NEARLY ALL those who are Knowledgeable, Rational, Logical and more than average Intelligent people would consider Terrorists to be.

Terrorists INDISCRIMINATELY and/or INTENTIONALLY target NON-combatants including women, children and babies!

Like Saddam and his special prison for CHILDREN w 12 years old and under were held. There, these LITTLE KIDS were beaten, starved, raped, tortured and murdered!

One who was TORTURED was a little two year old girl!

Get that? TWO YEARS OLD!

This prison ALONE is sufficient reason for Kind, Caring, Compassionate, Good, Just & MORAL people to go to war to remove Saddam and his sick family from power!

Thus, anyone against the war IS NOT, just CAN NOT BE, a GOOD, KIND, CARING MORAL person!

Any fool who says the United States of America INTENTIONALLY and/or INDISCRIMINATELY targets non-combatants IS a MENTALLY CHALLENGED LIAR!!

All the following are and/or were, SOME American Terrorists

The KKK, JIm Jones, David Kerish, The Aryan Nation, Tim McVeigh, The Neo-Nazis, The Posse Comitatus, Charles Mason & his family, Ted Kaczynski, the Freemen, the Militia of Montana, Terry Nicholas, the Night Stalker, The Zodiac Killer, Ted Bundy and Eric Robert Rudolph

And you can Google ‘American Terrorists’ and ‘Christian Terrorists’ for others

Last, why DON’T YOU ASK McVeigh, Nichols,
Kaczynski and Rudoolph if the United States is at war with them? Of course, it might be kind of hard as I think only Nicholes has not been executed!

  (Quote)

Sabio January 5, 2010 at 2:21 am

Excellent list — shows the point. The theism stance is just part of us.

  (Quote)

Rich January 5, 2010 at 6:47 am

Hi Neil.

Form a logical standpoint. all atheists are agnostic (“There are no gods” is a universal negative and so can never be proved) but if there is a God and he revealed himself through special revelation, you might not be agnostic at that point!?

The forum my name links to started as a vehicle to combat intelligent design creationism but has evolved into a vibrant community which you’d be very welcome to join. It’s fairly left leaning, but diversity is always good. Consider this an invite!

Personally, I’m pro military (anyone who would volunteer to put their life on the line for me and mine deserves thanks) – but I believe we should only use them when absolutely necessary.

It looks like things are getting a bit heated, but as far as I can tell everyone here is a good guy, so let’s all have a virtual beer and enjoy the dialogue..

  (Quote)

Pau S. January 5, 2010 at 8:20 am

why a christian would want these things is somewhat self-evident.

why would, or what would motivate, an atheist to want/believe anything of these things?

  (Quote)

Rich January 5, 2010 at 9:08 am

Pau S.: probably wants to increase world happiness and reduce suffering

Did you read the full list?

  (Quote)

Pau S. January 5, 2010 at 1:40 pm

of course

i’m asking why would an atheist want to increase world happiness and reduce suffering?

if the christian motive is obvious, what is the atheist motivation?

  (Quote)

Rich January 5, 2010 at 1:56 pm

What is the Christian obvious motivation? To buy a place in Heaven?

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 5, 2010 at 2:06 pm

First to Pau S.

Good People do Good things and it has nothing to do with a belief in one, or more of the 25,000 + named gods humans have invented so far

I actually feel sorry for you believers as it seems you really need a belief in some make-believe boogie man whom you fear to make you do what most Atheists know is the Right Thing to do..

———————-

Hello Rich,

Thank you for your reply.

“if there is a God and he revealed himself through special revelation, you might not be agnostic at that point!?”

Were it to happen, (which is impossible)
I would neither be an Agnostic or an Atheist!

Please note I, (& some others) capitalize Agnostic and Atheist and it is beyond me out why others who do not believe in the childish myths of religion do not.

While I wish you the best in combating intelligent design creationism, methinks you are mostly Preaching to the Choir”
I shall both paruse and share it with the more than 400 I send emails to.

(I send them various things including my “Quotes Jokes & Good Stuff”)

“Personally, I’m pro military”

And Again, GOOD ON YOU!

What totally amazes me is how those who are not can be so totally STUPID! Were it not for those of us who have been, and are, willing to fight, bleed and die, they would not have the freedom to open their retarded mouths and spout their brainless drivel.

They should go try speaking their feeble minds in North Korea, Iran, many other countries as well as the Taliban and Al Quada controlled areas of the world.
(Where they would last about as long as it takes to cut their heads off.)

You said: “I believe we should only use them when absolutely necessary.”

So do I, as do nearly all of us with fully functioning brains. And for sure it most certainly includes the many Vets who fully support the Iraq War.

I can assure you that I, as a intelligent**** rational and logical man who spends his time in search of truth, I would not be an Iraq War supporter were here not more than sufficient viable reasons to do so.

**** (Top 2.5% with nearly double the national average of AQ = Ability Quotient is the tested ability to effectively use the IQ one has. Oduma’s 160 IQ proves his AQ must be much lower than an average persons.)

As far as liberals, the facts are MOST START OUT as liberals, then they, like Ronald Reagan and myself, discover how wrong we were, we become conservative.

It is JUST LIKE going FROM Believer TO NON-Believer. It is a function of life, as one gains the experience and knowledge living in the REAL world brings, MOST go from being Liberal to being MORE Conservative.

There are more than a few “Conservative Atheists” now and our ranks are growing at what I consider to be a decent rate. Most are like most Atheists, they just have not “come out” as yet.

  (Quote)

Jeff H January 5, 2010 at 4:18 pm

Neil C. Reinhardt: This prison ALONE is sufficient reason for Kind, Caring, Compassionate, Good, Just & MORAL people to go to war to remove Saddam and his sick family from power!

Thus, anyone against the war IS NOT, just CAN NOT BE, a GOOD, KIND, CARING MORAL person!

Neil, while I respect your opinion – and note that I have not settled my own opinions on justification for war – this characterization of those who oppose the war in Iraq as bad, unkind, uncaring, immoral, and mentally challenged seems to display a great deal of black-and-white thinking. I don’t wish to mischaracterize you, but when I have witnessed such thinking in the past, it usually comes along with closed-mindedness, arrogance, and even prejudice in some cases. Certainly we all believe that we are right, but we must also appreciate that we are all prone to error and should at least be careful before assuming that everyone who does not agree with us must be categorically wrong.

While I would certainly agree that anyone who tortures chidren or supports the torture of children is committing a grievous and immoral wrong, when you extend that to, “Anyone who is against using war as a means of stopping this is immoral”, it seems to lose its force. Perhaps war is the right option, and I’m not trying to deny that. But sometimes war is used as a solution to a problem that is much more complex and deep-rooted than is realized at the time. If we only view Saddam as a cold-hearted, cruel butcher of human lives, we ignore the other causal influences that may have led to such behaviour. That doesn’t discredit the immorality of the behaviour itself, but if the real problem were, say, a sexist and highly prejudicial society, by merely taking out the top-man, we may do nothing to stop the production of the next mass murderer. Perhaps war cannot deal with the underlying influences that aren’t as apparent.

All I’m really trying to say in all of this is that this type of black-and-white thinking (“war must be right, and anyone who disagrees is stupid”) tends to diminish the open dialogue needed to come up with the best solutions to the problem. And that, I think, is crucial, especially when lives are at stake.

All the following are and/or were, SOME American TerroristsThe KKK, JIm Jones, David Kerish, The Aryan Nation, Tim McVeigh, The Neo-Nazis, The Posse Comitatus, Charles Mason & his family, Ted Kaczynski, the Freemen, the Militia of Montana, Terry Nicholas,the Night Stalker, The Zodiac Killer, Ted Bundy and Eric Robert Rudolph

Just as a side note, Jim Jones and David Koresh were cult leaders, not terrorists. I would be interested in knowing why you would label them as such, especially since the deaths associated with Koresh were as a result of being provoked by the SWAT team surrounding their compound. I certainly don’t wish to support the actions of cult leaders, but I find the label of “terrorist” to be a bit odd.

  (Quote)

Adiel O. Corchado January 5, 2010 at 5:42 pm

Another difference is that the Christian does the will of Jesus (and when he fails, he repents and seeks to do his will) while the atheist does his own will.

  (Quote)

Rich January 5, 2010 at 6:57 pm

They’re symptoms. I Stand by my origional thesis:

Rich: What is the Christian obvious motivation? To buy a place in Heaven?  (Quote)

  (Quote)

Pau S. January 5, 2010 at 7:25 pm

N.C. Reinhardt,

I trust you’re not satisfied with your own answer.

Its quite self-evident “Good People” and “Good Things” are entirely subjective, from the atheistic worldview.

As is the “Right Thing to do.”

Does anyone have a more cogent explanation?

  (Quote)

Rich January 5, 2010 at 7:32 pm

Hey Pau.

You assert:

Pau S.: why a christian would want these things is somewhat self-evident.

I don’t think it is. Please tell me why christians want these things.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 5, 2010 at 8:48 pm

Look Pau,

I am very satisfied with what I said or I would not have said it. Mayhap you are just really too THICK BRAINED to not know what GOOD things are like MOST people DO. (Even most retards)

Are you really SO CLUELESS you do not KNOW:

A. Nearly ALL the MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS of American Atheists WERE Christians?

The reason they NO no longer “Believe” is VERY SIMPLE! IT is called INCREASED KNOWLEDGE!

B. The odds are about 100% the ONLY reason you are a Christian and believe in the Christian god is simply because YOUR PARENTS PROGRAMMED YOU TO believe.

And had you been raised by those who believe in a different religion, they YOU would be as well. Had you been raised by Hindu’s. YOU would believe in MANY gods

C. YOU ARE STILL PROGRAMMED and you have NO clue your are! Many of we FORMER Christians realize we WERE Programmed. (And we know we did NOT know we were programmed WHEN we were.)

FYI Child, Atheists ARE the LEADERS or among the Leaders in EVERY field other than religion (& maybe, rap music) Plus, more than a FEW Atheists WERE among the Religious Leaders before they DE-programmed themselves.

http://www.jmarkgilbert.com/atheists.html

http://www.celebatheists.com/

Most Christians Child, are BIGOTS, as well as being liars, selfish and inconsiderate. So they are NOTHING to be so proud of.

So go play your stupid supposedly intellectual word games with others. (I suggest you go to a Christian site.)

  (Quote)

Jake de Backer January 5, 2010 at 10:15 pm

Neil,

While many of us here are sympathetic to your cause and salient irritation, zealotry is usually only effective on the mindless lunatics which you’ve been disparaging.

Maybe you’re no longer interested in appearing reasonable or winning those over to your cause by assisting in the removal of the programming you despise. Maybe you’ve spent too many years in ineffective dialogue and have moved right into full blown vituperation and castigation of those who harbor beliefs you find disagreeable. That is certainly within your rights, friend, but know that you are doing harm to your cause. To OUR cause.

J.

  (Quote)

Pau S. January 6, 2010 at 5:42 am

N.C. Reinhardt,

Were you raised by parents that programmed you to be an atheist?

If so, your atheism is as illegitimate as my alleged Christianity, right?

  (Quote)

Rich January 6, 2010 at 6:55 am

Hi Pau. You may have missed my question above, could you please answer it?

  (Quote)

Pau S. January 6, 2010 at 7:56 am

sure Rich,

I’m not a theologian or necessarily qualified to speak from the Christian point of view, but a few sample readings from the Christian New Testament make it seem rather clear.

Matthew 25:35-40
Titus 2:14
Luke 11:28

Does atheism have any objective motivating sources (obviously excluding the ultra-subjective “good” people or things)?

  (Quote)

Josh S January 6, 2010 at 8:08 am

You can make the same kind of list comparing a Communist with a Libertarian…just list all the things they have in common, and name only one of the differences.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 6, 2010 at 8:32 am

Pau S.

NO. I was not. I was a “believer” until
around age nine.

It was when I figured out what a con job religion was. For years after that (this was long before TV, much less the internet) I thought I was the only one who had done so and I had no idea there even were “Atheists”

It was not until Phil Donahue had the STRIDENT Atheist Madlyn Murry O’Hair on his TV show, (Who was his MOST popular guest and who got him his highest ratings) did I really get into the Separation of Church and State issues.

O’Hair is who is MOSTLY responsible for there being the few OPEN Atheists of today. (Few in relationship to the total.)

And of course, in heir TYPICAL fashion, the “Loving Christian” HYPOCRITES did all kinds of illegal, nasty and BAD things to her, her children and her property.

Scroll up to Angie the Anti-Theist
click on her website, go down to First Time Reader and READ HER Story.

Last Pau,

“If so, your atheism is as illegitimate as my alleged Christianity, right?”

Your saying the above is the typical ILLOGICAL CRAP I expect from you STILL Programmed Religious Robots!

Comparing being repeated told there IS a god, being where prayers are constantly said, every day and night, then going to church once a week (Or more) and/or Sunday school, perhaps attending religious school and all this going on for YEARS and YEARS

TO

An occasional comment from a parent there is no god and perhaps one of two conversations about religion spread over years, IS STUPID!

Atheists do NOT believe in one, or more gods as there is NO VIABLE evidence they exist.

——————

Jeff H,

I am NOT ignoring you. And I will answer any question asked.

It is just I sent a lot of time writing you a comprehensive reply only to have my WebTV lose it when I went to goggle for some information. Needless to say this really, really pissed me off.

So I will reply a little now.

I was WRONG and you ARE RIGHT about my listing Jim Jones and David Kerish as terrorists. I should not have done so even though they both inflicted TERROR on their believers. Jones also inflicted it when he had the Congressman and his aids MURFDERED

Anyone who actually has sufficient knowledge of the facts about Waco, KNOW Kerish INTENTIONALLY set it up so he WOULD have a confrontation with Federal authorizes. (Stocking Illegal weapons, building a forified compound, and screwing under age girls.)

You commented about some being ‘close minded’ and yes MANY are only I AIN’T one of them, I not only do not mind being proven wrong, I WELCOME it. I WANT to be Proven wrong.

In fact, I continually ASK people to prove me Wrong. I ask over 400 people at least once a month to do so when I send them an email I put together I call “Quotes, Jokes & Good Stuff” (IF anyone reading this wants me to send it to them, just ask)

So I’m most certainly NOT close minded! I will read & consider any NEW information sent me on any subject. I LOVE learning.

Some things ARE Black and White, Some are either Good and Bad, Evil or not Evil.

People are either dead OR, they are not. Lights are ON or OFF. Either a woman is either Pregant or she is not. Something is on fire or it is Not.

Yes, some (most?) People “Believe” things for which they have little to NO evidence to back up their belief.

And even though MOST people do NOT get their information FIRST hand, they will still defend their unsubstanted beliefs to the death, (Which is really very stupid.)

MOST people are those who Tolstoy refers to when he said:

“Most men… Can seldom accept even the simplest and most oblivious truth if it obligates them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught others and which they have woven thread by thread into the fabric of their lives.”

While others, LIKE ME have either sufficent information or experience to KNOW things. I KNOW there are more than sufficent reasons to fully justify the Iraq War and I know NO ONE has PROVEN any of 18 reasons I list for the justificaion are false.

(Luke attempted to by bringing up other Anti US issues NOT connected to Iraq. He also proved he is exactly what the Russian leadership called the Anti US protestors during the Cold War. It is “USEFUL IDIOTS”)

mayhap more later

—————————–

Hey Jake,

Here, Read the some things which Christians said to Angie the Anti-Theist.

you? atheist bitch! REPENT NOW!!!!

on 9/11 i had the biggest fucking wank ever. you stupid fucking american cunts deserved that shit.

i laughed when TJ’s dad died as well… that shit was hilarious…. but the icing on the fucking cake was? when I found out he had been molested as a child. what a fucking fat loser! lol

when you look at the creation of the universe. you see INTELLIGENT DESIGN. we did not come from a puddle of goo and microorganisms. there is No proof of that. you god awful stupid bitch
ofc it’s not a? religion you ugly dike!

I feel sorry for the poor deluded maker of this video, not to mention the many young & impressionable kids who will be led into a life? of crime and rampant anti-social behaviour after being brainwashed, I mean, indoctrinated, by it.

no Atheism is NOT a Religion its garbage that people think because theyre skeptick
thats who the athest are skepticks who bother the hell out of people who have a Religion and one guy i know laughs if if find out if you belive omg you have a falth how upserd hahahaha

you know what athest (some) belive that they come back as a tree or another person how? stupid does that sound

True…they build their whole lives around disbelief. They offer “nothing” in it’s? place. It’s like voting against something, instead of FOR something. Sounds just lazy. ((Like gay marriage, you asshole?))

YOUR ALL GOING TO HELL YOU ATHEIST QUEERS!!!!!!!! !!!! atheist = faggots You’re gonna eat your babies!

I am not a troll, I hate trolls. I am here spreading God’s love and compassion and you atheists hate the truth so you act like assholes.

You can see what? a good God he is. A lot of people have the term “curse” very confused. God doesn’t actively curse or damn anyone. A curse is actually what happens to us when we lack God.
Because if we push him away and curse him He cannot cover us because we don’t allow him. So when this happens we’re under a curse…

———–

AND JAKE,

Have FFRF send you their January issue of their great newspaper, “Freethought Today” and read some of the HATE mail they receive from the “Loving Christians” YOU think I should be nicer to.

NOTHING I have said to, or about, any Christians even comes anywhere close to being as bad as the VILE Crap they send Atheists! OR the terrible things they DO TO US! (Like Beating and Killing us)

Come to think about it, Conservatives get the same kind of idiot, Vile Crap from the Kool Aid drinking Obots and Liberals.

  (Quote)

Reginald Selkirk January 6, 2010 at 8:55 am

Pau S.: N.C. Reinhardt,Were you raised by parents that programmed you to be an atheist?If so, your atheism is as illegitimate as my alleged Christianity, right?  

Please read up on the genetic fallacy.

  (Quote)

Pau S. January 6, 2010 at 10:02 am

R. Selkirk,

The caveat of genetic fallacy “unless its past in some way affects its present value” eliminates applying the GF to this instance.

  (Quote)

RabbitPirate January 6, 2010 at 10:11 am

lukeprog: I have no idea who the people in the photograph are. I just found a picture of two people hugging to illustrate my point.  (Quote)

And we thank you for that. It may be my bias talking but the evil heathen girl is definitely hotter. But then aren’t they always?

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 6, 2010 at 10:38 am

RabbitPirate,

It just happened that way because I had envisioned the caption as “a christian… an atheist…” and I didn’t horizontally flip the picture when I found it.

  (Quote)

Jeff H January 6, 2010 at 3:59 pm

Neil, thanks for your reply. I am glad to hear that you welcome other points of view. But I am not sure that I made myself clear enough. I agree with you that there are “good” and “bad” things. But when you talk about the war in Iraq, you are talking about methods and strategies for dealing with a situation.

Even if I agree with you that Saddam Hussein was a terrible person, objectively evil, and needed to be stopped, I may disagree with the method for doing so. If I were a pacifist, I might say that to act immorally by starting a war would be worse than allowing an immoral act to continue. Two wrongs don’t make a right, in other words. You may disagree with the pacifist idea, and that is alright, but the idea is not “Saddam Hussein is bad, therefore war is what we must do.” The proper line of thinking is “Saddam Hussein is bad, therefore we must choose the best strategy for stopping him.” And that might be war. But it might also be trade sanctions, or snipers, or supporting internal dissenting groups, or even just letting the situation play out by itself. You need to argue for why war is the best strategy for dealing with the situation, rather than assuming it is the only option available.

But perhaps you have. I am not trying to mischaracterize you. But with your multiple insults and excessive emphasis against anyone who disagreed with the war in Iraq, it seemed that you were simply assuming that the war was the best strategy without actually dealing with alternative strategies that might be available. At the very least, the knowledge that there are other strategies out there, even if you believe them to be less than optimal, should allow you to realize that perhaps insults are not the best way to convince. If war is truly the best option, then well-reasoned arguments should clearly show that.

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 6, 2010 at 10:38 pm

Long posts entirely in all-caps shall heretofore be deleted.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 6, 2010 at 11:12 pm

There is NO USE in presenting intelligent, well reasoned arguments to those who are impervious to reason! Who are too lazy to do the research and get the facts and/or who must be too stupid to be able to comprehend what the facts mean if they did get them.

There are MANY FACTS which PROVE beyond ANY DOUBT the Iraq War was not only Fully Justifed, it IS a Very ECESSARY part of our world wide war on the Moslem Fanatical Terrorists who have been KILLING Americans and our friends for OVER thirty years.

Here are SOME of them!

Anyone with an FULLY working BRAIN and who has taken the time to actually have knowledge of what they are talking about, knows;

A, Iraq’s WMD was ONLY ONE of EIGHT Reasons given to LIBERATE Iraq & voted on by our Congress. Of course none of the retards against the war never comment on the other seven. IF they did, I am sure they would be as totally wrong on them as they are on the WMD issue

Our special forces troops found WMD IN IRAQ. They included Mustard gas which was used against us, and many 55 gallon barrels of Saran Gas,

Then there was the FIVE HUNDRED METRIC TONS of Yellow Cake uranium which is used to make ATOMIC Weapons which was found in Iraq shortly after the war started and is now making electricity in Canada.

Yellow Cake is a PRIME component of ATOMIC BOMBS!

All of which PROVES there were, and still could be, WMD there.

The UN, the Russians and former high ranking Iraqi officials stated Iraq’s WMD and components to make more of them been moved to three known locations in Syria just before, and during the first of the war. (In fact, it was Russian Special Forces troops who had helped move them!)

Saddam’s own generals kept waiting for him to order them to use the WMD they though he would use. Our generals were both afraid of them being used and were constantly on alert Saddam would use them.

Saddam had qualified people and the facilities ready to start up production of WMD as soon as the UN got off his ass.

B. A 2002 article in Saddam’s son’s own newspaper NAMES his Official who was Saddam’s official liaison with Bin Laden.

This is ONLY ONE of the MANY. MANY FACTS which PROVE there were MOST certainly DIRECT Links between Saddass and bin Laden.

C. A full eight months BEFORE we began to LIBERATE IRAQ, a BBC article reported Al Quada and Taliban Forces where operating in an area of north-eastern Iraq (known as “Iraq’s Tora Bora”) fighting Kurds for dear old Saddam.

THIS is just MORE of the PROOF of Saddam’s links to Bin Laden.

D. Taliban and Al Quada fighters from Afghanistan were not only trained and armed by Saddam, when they were wounded they were taken to Iraq and medically treated!

E. Saddam paid $25,000 the families of suicide bombers who blew up innocent men, women, children & babies in Israel to influence more idiots to strap bombs to their bodies.

F. Saddam funded, trained, gave safe haven and intelligence to many other terrorists (some 8,000) and terrorists groups who killed westerners including Americans.

During the first few days of the war, at Salmen Pak, US Marines fought against many “terrorist trainees” who were from many countries other than Iraq. This occurred at one Iraq’s various terrorist training centers .
countries other

G. For eight years Saddam trained, armed and supported Terrorists who are operating in the Philippians. They’ve killed many innocent people including Americans and they are still killing there.

H. In n average year under Saddam, not only were HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Iraqi’s TORTURED, OVER 30,000 were KILLED! And this happened each and every year, for year after year.

I. Saddam gave safe haven to terrorists who had killed Americans well as to terrorists wanted by other governments. (This “safe haven” included a place to live and money)

J. Saddam’s own agents conducted several terrorist attacks. They WERE implicated in the FIRST World Trade Towers Bombing. And his agents attempted to assassinate a former American president.

K. During Gulf War I, Saddam’s people tortured the prisons of war they captured And this was REAL torture, not the namby pamby stuff the idiot liberals get all excited about.

L. There were 13 or more UN resolutions which for over 12 years Saddam refused to comply with. Anyone who does not know that many resolutions and that many years not complied with means the stupid UN was not going to take any action.

The UN, the European Union and NATO sat by and watched, FOR YEARS, Serbia conduct genocide in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

NOTHING was done to SAVE MOSLEM lives until the United States took action. (And please note, it was NOT the first Pres. Bush who SHOULD taken action, it was Pres. Clinton.)

The UN, The European Union and NATO were doing the same damn thing in Iraq! They were doing NOTHING!

While there are other reasons which I could post only by now, even an idiot would say we did not have sufficient reasons to take Psycho Saddam, his sick sons and their regime out.

I will only give one more reason which all by itself is more than sufficient for those of us who are actually good, decent, kind compassionate and caring people to take action.

We are those who have in the past, and would in the future, put our own lives on the line for others.

The last reason, and one which justifies the Iraq war all by its little self is:

Saddam had a special prison JUST to HOLD Children age 12 and under where LITTLE KIDS were held, starved, beaten, raped, tortured and murdered!

What terrible crime had these children committed to be put in this special prison? Someone in their family had said some thing which someone in Saddam’s regime did not like!

One little girl who was tortured was ONLY TWO YEARS OLD!

This prison alone is more than enough reason for me and all DECENT, KIND, CARING, COMPASSIONATE & MORAL people to take Saddam and his regime out

FYI US Marines from Camp Pendelton, Ca, closed this prison down.

Now, for

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 6, 2010 at 11:56 pm

YOUR A TOTAL ASSHOLE FOR DELEATING MY post about Atheists NOT learning frm history and why they should be strident

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 7, 2010 at 8:03 am

Neil,

You are welcome to retype it, just not in all-caps.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 7, 2010 at 11:49 am

LUKE,

BOTH my suggestion you use pictures of FAMOUS Christians and Atheists and my reply to Jake de Backer ARE GONE!

Neither of them were even close to being ALL CAPS
My Reply to Jake gave three historical examples which PROVE he is wrong about saying Atheists Should NOT Be STRIDENT!

Who gets MUCH MORE PRESS? Normal WHIMPY Atheists like it seems Jake mus be or the Madlyn Mirry OHair? OR Sam Harris?

And MEDIA ATTENTION GETS Atheists groups more
members and it get Atheist BLOGS More Readers!

LOGIC, PEOPLE LOGIC!

(Of course, it is abundantly clear many Atheists are NOT logical on about any subject other than on religion and the existence of gods.)

I do not spend a lot of time writing it to have it deleted, It was a calm, rational and factual reply and there is not reason it should not be here.

—————————-

JEFF,

It is NOT I who is CLOSE MINDED!

It is NOT I who a PAWN for the Terrorists

it is NOT I who is a what the USSR’s leaders said were “USEFUL IDIOTS” for them and who are NOW “Useful Idiots” for bin laden and the Terrorists

It is NOT I who Refuses to learn FACTS!

It is NOT I who is Too Stupid to be able to understand what the Facts mean.

No, it IS the Clueless Clods of the Loony Left, the Anti-war pukes who refuse to Learn, and/or Deny the Facts and/or who seem to be really just too stupid to understand what the facts mean.

I DEFY You and/or anyone else to Provide any Facts which PROVE I am wrong!

I DEFY you, or anyone else, to PROVE my eighteen (18) reasons the Iraq War is Both a Fully Justified War as well as a Very NECESSARY part or our war on Moslem Terrorist are NOT true!

Did you get “the NECESSARY” part of that?

IF any OPEN minded person is interested in my list of 18 reasons, e-me:

religionsucks@webtv.net

OR, if anyone is really so clueless they think for a second they can disprove my 18 reasons, I welcome them to try.

(Of course, they would have just as much of a chance of proving ALL Homosexuals CHOOSE to be homosexual, we did NOT “Moon Land”, there was NO Holocaust and Evolution is false as they do disproving my facts.)

————————————–

LUKE,

I can understand what you deleted my ALL caps rant at the FOOLS who are too mentally challenged and too close minded to examine the MASSIVE amount of Facts, Evidence, and PROOF the Iraq War is BOTH Fully Justified and a VERY NECESSARY part of our world wide War on the Moslem Fanatical Terrorists!

Our war on Terrorists (and those who suport them LIKE SADDAM did) who have been KILLING Americans and our friends for over THIRTY Years!

My temper got the best of me as I am really Sick & Tired of reading and hearing retarded IDIOTS who are too lazy and/or too Stupid to know what the hell they are talking about in regards to the Iraq War. These FOOLS are MERE PAWNS for bin Laden, The Moslem Brotherhood and the others of their ilk.

The are just Terrorist Pawns, Useful Idiots and and Total Losers!

The Moslem Fanatics have a published One Hundred Year Plan to take over the entire planet! They are in year Twenty & they are AHEAD of Schedule!

Once they achieve their goals (and there is a strong chance they will.) they fully intend to establish a World Wide Caliphate. One where they would rule all those still alive with a Taliban form of rule under Sharia Law!

Anti-War Pukes are just “USEFUL IDIOTS” for the Moslem Fanatics. Their words and actions STAB our military in the back and embolden more attacks.

To be blunt, all anti-war pukes Repulse Me! They Disgust Me! They make me want ot Vomit.

(I call them pukes because were I given the chance, I would hold each one down and PUKE in their faces!)

And IF I HAD MY WAY, every single anti war puke would be gathered up and deposited in Taliban and/or Al Quada and/or any Fanatical Moslem controlled areas of the world. And I’d wish I were where could listen to them beg for their lives in the few minutes it took before they were first tortured, and then beheaded!

DAMN GOOD RIDDANCE!

(Of course, if all the Obots were along with them as well, the US would be back in really great shape.)

  (Quote)

Jeff H January 7, 2010 at 3:04 pm

Neil, I wasn’t intending to be antagonistic by any means. Your responses, on the other hand, are very much so. How did I merit a response like that? I merely suggested that we need to make sure that we examine all possible strategies before committing to a measure like war, and you come back with a bunch of “It is NOT I”s and “I DEFY you”s. I’ve seen this sort of behaviour before, and it’s typically characteristic of someone who is letting extreme emotion get in the way of reason and logic.

But I would like to hear your 18 reasons why the war in Iraq is justified. I just don’t want to email you and get subscribed to a mailing list or anything. However, I’ll email you about it and take a look at your reasons. But at any rate…that’s really all I have to say, since your comment really didn’t merit much of a reply. I don’t tend to give much credence to people who talk about wanting to vomit in people’s faces.

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 7, 2010 at 3:12 pm

Neil,

I only deleted the one that was in all caps.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 7, 2010 at 5:52 pm

LUKE,

BOTH of them HAD been posted as I read them AFTER they had posted. IF you did not remove them I have NO clue where they went. And while I have saved others I wrote I did not save either one of them,

In the “picture” email, I suggested Ann Coulter and either Jody Foster or Katherine Hepburn.

I will have to rewrite the other one only I am not sure I will like it as well as the one I had written. As I am sure you know, sometimes words seem to flow and at other times, they do not.

————————

Well JEFF,

I had, SEVERAL times, SAID the war is FULLY Justified. I’d said we Vets would not support an unjustified war. I’d also said the Iraq War was a NECESSARY part of our World Wide War on Moslems Fanatics.

Then, to have you AGAIN indicate there were other alternatives WHEN THERE WERE NONE pissed me off and caused me answer the way I did.

(And FYI, what I did say is not even close to expressing how much I really HATE all anti-war Loony Tunes! )

I care less if those, whose words and actions, are STABBING OUR MILITARY IN THE BACK and who are GETTING OUR TROOPS KILLED do not like me being truthful and expressing exactly how I feel about them!

I can assure you their ACTIONS PISS ME OFF a whole LOT more than ANYTHING I could possibly say would piss you, or any one else off!

The truth is, few people will match me in:

A. the number if lives I have saved as a life guard,

B. the amount of blood I have given,

C. my number of years of service to our county.

D. the money I helped raise for charity. And getting my picture in the San Diego newspaper (Tribune?) for doing so

And I give as much money as I can to help others. (Plus I have given away hundreds of dollars worth of the natural immune boosting mirlacle, Noni Juice.)

E, the number times (not even including my military service time) I have put my physical well being and my life on the line FOR OTHERS.

This includes doing so FOR Black Civil Rights while living in the south in the late 1950′s and early 1960′s. (I’m still amazed I was not terribly beaten or killled on one occasion.)

At age 60 plus, I had to push a cart up against a 7 ft high metal picket type fence which had sharp points on the top of it so I get over the fence and go rescue a girl who was screaming like she was being beaten and/or raped. When the guy saw me coming after him, he let her go and ran.

About a month ago, I had to stop a large young black tough from beating the hell out of a women he was chasing. (This guy had already dropped another black guy who had tried to stop him)

So while I used pepper spray to stop him, I still had to stand between him and her to order him to stop or be sprayed. As he did not stop coming toward me, I sprayed him.

Those are only a FEW of the MANY times I have taken steps to stop crimes and/or help others and, I have been doing such things since I was a 5th grader.

F. I was a card carrying member of NOW and was mostly responsible for getting the first women promoted into management in a top 500 corporation.

G. In spite of my being drugged and raped by a Homosexual, I have continually supported their having the same rights as others. I support them serving openly in the military and being able to be married if they so desire.

H. I not only do NOT try to get out of jury duty, I volunteer for it.

I. I worked to get Pattie Hearst out jail as she damn well should have never been there in the first place. I have worked on various political campaigns and will again.

I’ve fought dangerous fire while waiting to get blown up (scarey) and I sure did not have be there. Been a volunteer in a real possie chasing some escaped bad guys and I have been a Civil Defense Auxiliary Police Officer,

During WWII, I was even doing more than most my age because as a young kid I was collecting paper and other things for the war effort. Another guy and I won a trip to an air force base, a ride in a jeep, shaking “Rin Tin Tin II’s” paw for doing so and getting my picture in the Denver Post ofr doing so.

The first fight I was in was stopping two other 5th graders from beating up an Oriental kid like it was his fault the Japs had attacked us.

Last, if you watch the video about the Olympic bombing in Atlanta, Ga, (or any other same type of video) you will see people react in one of three ways.

When the explosion happened, most just stood there like deer caught in a cars headlights while others ran AWAY from the scene. Then, there were a FEW who ran toward the area where the explosion had happened to see if they could do anything to help.

These types of people always run toward whatever happened irregardless of any possible additional danger! They do this as their being injured and/or killed are of secondary importance to them when compared to their being able to help others.

I AM, and I have been for nearly all of my life, one of those who runs toward the danger.

So do you really think I give a rats ass as to who “gives me credence” ?

  (Quote)

Gil January 7, 2010 at 9:44 pm

I don’t believe Neil R. is truly an atheist.

  (Quote)

lukeprog January 7, 2010 at 11:04 pm

Gil,

No, he is. He sends out mass emails about atheism to tons of atheists. He’s just kind of crazy, that’s all.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 7, 2010 at 11:48 pm

Sorry Luke,

Some Top Psychologists would disagree with you about my sanity.

One (Dr, Charles Hearn of Santa Monica) even tested me and said I was only very bright, my Ability Quotient (AQ) was nearly double the national average. This means I use my IQ much more effectively than most.

And Dr. Paul DeSena, a friend who taught at Loyola Marymount thinks I am totally sane.

I just do not suffer fools much, supposedly intelligent fools and liars hardly at all

I also emil over 400 many different things from great pictures of pink Dolphins to my “Quotes, Joke & Good Stuff” news from Iraq & Afghanistan, as well as items on Atheism,

———————

That’s Ok GIL,

I find it difficult to believe anyone as totally clueless as you are even knows how to access the net much less post a message. Tell me, Child, are you really that stupid naturally?

Or do you have to eat lots of Retard Pills to be as mentally challenged as your post proves you to be?

Anyone who is so TOTALLY IGNORANT as to not know the ONLY thing which ALL Atheists have in common is a lack of belief in one, or more gods, MUST be a RETARD!

Of course, due to your exceptionally poor communication skills, I have no idea if your poor little mind is all pushed out of shape because I am informed and logical enough to support the Iraq War OR if it is because of my being extremely honest and truthful in my communications about telling anti war pukes what I think of them.
I know other Conservative Atheists have as low of an opinion of them as I do only few people are as honest as I am.

Here Child, try something new for you, it is called LEARNING!

First Child, I am 75 years old and can not only kick the shit out of you intellectually, I can most probably do so physically as well. I have been an Atheist for around
67 years and an Atheist Activist for over 50 years.

I will bet you are too retarded to be an Activist. I doubt you have ever written any “Letters of the Editors” of newspapers and magazines in support of Atheism.

I’ll guess you have never gotten prayers stopped a city council meetings, or caused a court to stop forcing Atheists to attend A.A. meetings or picked the Pope or told a judge there was not way I was going to swear to some make believe god like I have.

I doubt you even belong to, and support with effort and/or money even ONE Atheist group much less FOUR of them like I do.

I am a member of

AA

  (Quote)

Jeff H January 8, 2010 at 7:25 pm

Neil,

To start off with, that’s an impressive resume you’ve got. It’s good to hear that your passion has led you to help others and promote equality. I commend you for that.

However, one little thing I’d like to point out (as I’m currently in school for psychology) is that “ability quotient” is not any sort of recognized standard in psychology. Intelligence quotient is (although there are those who don’t like that measure, which is fine), but I have never heard of ability quotient, and I can’t even find any more information on it. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily totally bunk, but it just means it may be some idiosyncratic theory that this Dr. Hearn came up with. IQ is something that is standardized across a large population, but if this is something that has not been developed in the literature, I’d be skeptical of the reliability of the measure anyway. But whatever…just a side note.

Thanks for sending me your list of facts. Unfortunately, like I suspected, none of them really deal with the issue that I brought up, i.e. that even if we agree with all the facts about Saddam, there can still be legitimate debate over the method of dealing with him. Of course, you say that there are no other alternatives other than war. Fine. But a simple list of what Saddam has done is not going to convince a pacifist, who might say that, though it is not optimal, even doing nothing would be better than starting a war. I don’t necessarily advocate that position, but my point, once again, is that it’s an argument over the strategies, not over the facts (necessarily).

I disagree that war is the only option, however. For one thing, the United Nations, as ineffective as they might be, could be modified to make them more effective. Economic sanctions have had at least some success in some cases. Empowerment of the Iraqi people, to help them to topple a corrupt leadership themselves, might be a good option. The Iraqis certainly haven’t welcomed the Americans with open arms, as many saw it as an unwanted intrusion. If a strategy was developed with the needs and concerns of the Iraqi people in mind rather than the focus on terrorism (against the US), perhaps these attitudes wouldn’t have been present to as great a degree. The US might also have had greater backing from the UN on the matter.

These are all possibilities. I don’t offer them as solutions that I’ve invested a lot of time and effort into, but rather as a simple display that there are alternatives to war. I’m sure there are many more that I’ve missed. War tends to be a very blunt object, and sometimes finer precision is needed. Especially when you’re dealing with cavorting into a totally different country and “saving” them from themselves. I only advocate examining all our variety of tools, in the interest of recognizing that different situations call for different methods.

At any rate, I don’t expect to convince you with this, so I am wondering why I am even writing this, but whatever. Let’s just end this off and agree to disagree. I’ll finish by commending you once again on your courage and selflessness in helping others. That’s certainly something I can tip my hat to.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 8, 2010 at 10:01 pm

Hello Jeff,

First, THANK YOU for your commending me for my helping others. I try to do something good for others every day and if I go out I usually do.

—–

As far as Ability Quotient. Nearly EVERY IDEA and/or Concept starts with ONE person who comes up with the idea, does the thinking, the study and research about it and who presents it to others.

“Reasonable men adapt themselves to their environment. Unreasonable men try to adapt their environment to themselves. Thus all progress is the result of efforts of unreasonable men.”

George Bernard Shaw

——–

“The great and invigorating influences in American life have been the unorthodox: the people who challenge an existing institution or way of life or say and do things that make people think.”

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 8, 2010 at 11:12 pm

Jeff,

Your comments on Iraq prove you do not have a clue as to the facts.

“Economic sanctions have had at least some success in some cases.”

ZERO SUCCESS IN IRAQ

“Empowerment of the Iraqi people, to help them to topple a corrupt leadership themselves, might be a good option.”

THAT GOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF IRAQI TORTURED and/or KILLED.

IT GOT OVER 50,000 men, women children and babies DEAD from the poison gas dropped on them.

“The Iraqis certainly haven’t welcomed the Americans with open arms, as many saw it as an unwanted intrusion.”

Total BS! You watch too much LAME STREAM MEDIA!
These incompetent MSM losers OVER report any bad things which happen in Iraq and either UNDER report and/or do not report AT ALL any of the many good things which happen.

(And FYI, The LAME STREAM Media’a BIASED, LYING AND INCOMPENTENT reporting is the MAIN reason Oduma was elected!)

MOST Iraqis welcomed us as most Iraqis were NOT members of Battah party or Sunni Moslems. Yes, SOME Shia were figthing us only most of them, have links to Iran.

The majority of the terrorists fighting us
IN Iraq were NOT Iraqis!

Do your really think the Iraqi people walked for miles and stood in lines with mortar shells falling around them to vote if they did not care about being free?

The UN? The worthless jerks who sat around and watched the Genocide in Bosnia, Croatia & Kosovo while doing NOTHING? Who, with over 12 years and 13 resolutions on Iraq STILL did NOTHING?

GIVE ME A BREAK!

Methnks Jeff, should change your name to Neville Chamberlain.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 9, 2010 at 12:29 pm

SO GIL

STILL DO NOT BELIEVE I AM AN ATHEIST?

————————–

Jeff H

YOU said: “I’ve seen this sort of behaviour before, and it’s typically characteristic of someone who is letting extreme emotion get in the way of reason and logic.”

This comment shows you are displaying a lack of Knowledge as well as of Logical, Rational Thinking Skills Facts are there is Absolutely NOTHING wrong with either having or displaying Emotion. Emotion is a Great thing to both have and, to use in it’s Proper place.

While emotion should NOT be used to arrive at a position on a subject, once a position has been arrived at, there is nothing what so ever wrong with using emotion to support or promote or defend the position reached.

Of course, as any rational person knows. a position on any subject should only be arrived at by first having having sufficient knowledge of the subject and then using logical, critical thinking skills to arrive at an intelligent and correct position on the subject in question.

As MOST anti-war pukes I have ever asked any questions about the 9-11 attacks, bin laden and the Iraq War and who have at least had the integrity to answer, have proven the only thing which has exceeded their infinite ignorance of the facts is their equally astronomical arrogance they have any real knowledge of them.

Thus to expect them, with their extremely limited knowledge to make any intelligent decisions and arrive at a rational positon on them is totally naive.

——————————–

Blogs on Iraq & Afghanistan

One of the best ways to help keep up on Afghanistan and Iraq are blogs mostly written by those who are there..

The first one is on Iraq and are articles posted by an Air Force officer who was a successful lawyer in private practice before 9-11. Due to 9-11, he joined the Air Force, served on Active duty, and is now in the reserves.

http://airforcepundit.blogspot.com/

—————————–

Michael Yon is the single most respected and trusted free lance photojournalist who was covering Iraq & is now in Afghanistan. He has great true stories and pictures in his blog.

One of his photos of a bloody dead very young Iraqi girl being carried very lovingly by a US soldier is one of the most famous photos of the Iraq War. The girl was killed by a terrorist bomber.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

——————————-

While this Blog takes a while to load due the massive amount of information it contains it does has GREAT pictures and links to MANY other blogs which are most written by those on the ground in both Iraq and Afghanistan. These blogs contain a lot of really Great information:

http://thunderrun.blogspot.com/

———————————–

IRAQ THE MODEL

Is written by an intelligent, educated Iraqi dentist living & working in Iraq. It IS the Most Respected blog from Iraq.

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt January 12, 2010 at 6:20 pm

For JAKE and all who agree with him

As “Jake” did not like my reply to a Christian and he said it was too “strident” for his liking. He felt such action hurt the cause of Atheism. So I wrote a reply for his edification and posted it only to have it disappear, so I’ve written another one,

——-

There are those who study history and those who do not. Of those who do study history, some learn the lessons history teaches and some do not. Then there are are those who do learn from many, to at least a few, of the lessons history teaches and then there are those who seem to only learn a few, to none of them at all.

As I am one of those who has learned at least of few of the lessons which history teaches, I am going to share it. It is about what does, and does not work as far as gaining the rights a minority has been deprived of.

In regards to people being treated as equals and being granted the same rights as others, all the lessons which history teaches are very clear. And yet sadly, it seems many have not learned them.

Thus I will point some of them out.

1. History teaches us Blacks were not allowed equal opportunities and were continually discriminated against as long as they were nice, meek, did not make any waves and they most certainly were not “Strident”.

Blacks did NOT make much advancement until after some of them & their supporters became More Strident. They spoke boldly out and they demonstrated, they did what they needed to do to gain the rights they should have always had.

2. History teaches us Women were not allowed equal opportunities and were continually discriminated against as long as they were nice, meek, did not make any waves and were most certainly were not “Strident”.

Like Blacks, Women did NOT make much advancement until after some women and their supporters became More Strident. They spoke boldly out, they demonstrated, they did what they needed to do to gain the rights they should have always had.

3. History teaches us Homosexuals were not allowed equal opportunities and were continually discriminated against as long as they were nice, meek, did not make any waves. And they were most certainly not Strident.

Like the Blacks and Women before them, the Homosexuals did NOT make much advancement until after some of them & their supporters became More Strident. They spoke out boldly out and they also demonstrated, they did what they needed to do to gain the rights they should have always had.

And while they still do not have all the rights they should, they are certainly closer to them now than they have been any time in the past here in the United States. Of course, most of those who want to hold them down and deprive them or their right are the same ones who do it to we Atheists. It is, the Christians!

Therefore, all those Atheists who are, as I am, damn sick and tired of:

A. Being Discriminated against ONLY because we are Atheists

B. Having the majority of voters NOT vote for Atheists no matter how they are other wise well qualified for the position they are ONLY because we are Atheists.

C. Receiving Hate phone calls, Hate mail and Hate email messages ONLY because we are Atheists.

D. Our NOT being hired, or promoted or being fired ONLY because we are Atheists.

E. Having State laws against our serving in elected positions ONLY because we are Atheists.

F. Still being subjugated to “Witch Trials” ONLY because we are Atheists!

G. Having our business boycotted ONLY because we are Atheists

H. Being the only minority left in the US, where it is still considered to be politically correct to put down and make jokes about ONLY because we are Atheists

K. Being SO AFRAID of being treated badly by Christians, not publicly stating they are Atheists.

WILL Join & then support by action and/or money, at least one of the organizations listed at the end of this. And they may even, as I have join ALL of them

Plus, they WILL also become much more STRIDENT toward believers! Let them know we are really sick and tired of being treated badly by then and were are NOT going to put up with it any more!

IF there were more Atheists like me, we WOULD be demonstrating and raising enough hell to get media coverage! And we would be doing it on a continuing basis! We WOULD be doing what ever we need to do to gain the rights we should have always had.

Those Atheists who are fed up enough WILL do this as History has PROVEN Over and Over again, NOT doing so is counter-productive!

It does NOT work!

History has proven, over and over again, NOT being both Out Spoken and/or more Strident does NOT get the press coverage we NEED for our Cause!

Which guest was the largest draw for ratings on Phi Donahue’s TV show and which Atheist was the first one who caused many people to become
aware of Atheists and the Atheist movement?

What Atheist’s actions are the most responsible for much of the progress we have made up to today? It was a strident Atheist named Madlyn Murray O’Hair!

Who gets the MOST press?

A very nice only a rather meek and mild Atheist like Dan Barker? (Who is not only has been in the Atheism movement for many years, he’s also one of the smartest people on the entire planet,)

OR

A more out spoken and a more strident Sam Harris?

While Dan Barker has probably forgotten more about the Christian Religion than Harris knows or will ever know, it is Sam Harris who is both more famous and gets the most press coverage.

http://www.Atheists.org/

http://www.AtheistsUnited.org/

http://www.FFRF.org/

http://MAAF.info/

  (Quote)

HumanistJeanne January 29, 2010 at 11:17 pm

Neil, dude, give your caps lock key a break, just every once in a while. You’ll find it doesn’t make your point any more or less effective anyway. You may find it actually makes it easier for people to relate to you because it won’t feel like you’re yelling at them.

Thanks to whomever posted this. I’m planning a sort of round-table discussion forum with my student atheist group and several of the campus religious student organizations. This little piece was a nice illustration of the point I’m trying to make about the two “sides” of the religious/secular divide. Nice work.

  (Quote)

Jean Guillory March 6, 2010 at 2:34 am

Here you line up well one true fact: that all of us are humans and can relate with one another. This is a good thing, as people often allow labels to separate them, forgetting how much we all actually have in common.
However, also with Christians is the fact that everything in our lives is now centered around our God in Christ Jesus. When speaking of Christians, it is crucial to keep in mind our focus and center and aim in life. If you leave that out, then you are seeing us as something we are not.

  (Quote)

Jean Guillory March 6, 2010 at 2:42 am

I’m sorry to double post but I must clear up something about my previous comment.
Not everybody claiming to be Christian truly lives the way I described above. Many people have grown up in the church and think that alone makes them Christian, and regardless of what they do they presume automatic forgiveness and live the opposite of the “good and loving” that they claim to be. I do not above speak for impostors of the faith, but for the true. A true Christian claims Christ’s righteousness, knowing he himself is wicked in heart but striving for God, with God’s Spirit working in him and on him.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt March 6, 2010 at 3:53 pm

First, to Humanist Jeanne,

When I want someone who is much less experienced, less knowledgeable and as they call others “dude” must be MUCH younger than I, to tell me how to act, I shall ask for their input.

To Jane Guillory

Sorry, only your comments saying who is a “true” Christian and who is not, is just another typical one given by Christians. The sad truth is that MANY Christians say other Christians are not Christians while those Christians say the others are not Christians. (Just like a bunch of little kids would do.)

You can read some of many of the disagreements about who is a Christian or is not in the this website.

http://www.religioustolerance.org

I was told I am NOT an Atheist as NO Atheist could and/or would support the Iraq War. (or vote for McCain) This when many very intelligent, informed, logical and rational “Conservative” Atheists aside from myself do and/or did both.

So I informed him the ONLY thing ALL Atheists agree on is our lack of belief in one, or more gods. The fool who said I could not be an Atheist is as wrong as are those who say other Christians are not Christians.

A Christian IS:

A person who believes in Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, Who believe Christ, (in Greek- derived terminology) as prophesied in the Old Testament Hebrew Bible, is the Messiah and the Son of God.

PERIOD!

It IS, like it or not, a persons belief which defines them! It is NOT their actions, OR the agreement of others which identifies them as being Christians (or Atheists) or not.

PERIOD!

END OF STORY!

Please, Take Care!

Neil

  (Quote)

HumanistJeanne March 6, 2010 at 10:52 pm

To Neil: As you took issue with my grammar, I feel I am obligated to take issue with yours. It’s clearly very important to you as it is all you choose to take from my comment. You wrote, “When I want someone…” “Someone” is a singular noun. However, you then refer to a plural noun with the pronoun “they” and the possessive plural pronoun “their.” This is an egregious error on your part. Therefore, the next time I want the judgmental and argumentative opinion of someone who has demonstrated his/her irrational tendency to jump to conclusions about complete strangers on the basis of a single four-letter word, I will definitely be speaking to you first.

To Jean: As a Secular Humanist, I really appreciated this post because it perfectly illustrated my opinion that believers and nonbelievers truly do have more in common than we have separating us. You and Neil both refer to labels and the common disagreements over their definitions. This is the main reason I don’t particularly care for labels. They mean different things to different people in different situations. This obviously isn’t something unique to religion, but it does seem to create more problems among religious and nonreligious groups. We tend to invest much of our own sense of self-worth and self-awareness into these labels, resulting in a sense of personal insult when someone applies a different definition to that label or chooses not to believe in its value. Because of this obvious and nearly inevitable conflict, I really try to see past these labels and appreciate the common humanity in all of us. If you’re doing good things, helping people, being kind to others, caring for the world around you, I really don’t care what your motivation is. I judge people on their actions, not their personal beliefs.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt March 7, 2010 at 12:46 am

Well Jeannne,

1. You should take a course on improving your reading comprehension skills as I never said a thing about your grammar.

2. Your comments on grammar also prove you have little clue what the PRIMARY purpose of language is.

Famed and best selling author Leon Uris once said something to the effect of:

“While I can not subjugate or conjugate,
I sure can communicate.”

So for your edification Child, I shall point out the PRIMARY purpose of language is to accomplish ONE thing and ONE thing only. It IS to successfully communicate a desired message from one (or more) to one (or more) others.

And IF the desired communication IS achieved, then “proper” grammar and/or spelling are NOT required. They are NOT germain. They are NOT needed.

The facts are the only people who worry “proper grammar and spelling” WHEN the desired message has been successfully communicated, are the anal retentive nit pickers of the world who must not have much else to do.

Neil

P.S. Ive most probably been a “Secular Humnanist” for at least twice as long as you have been alive.

P.P.S. And while many have done more for the betterment of humanity than I have, I have still done more than most have, or will.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt March 10, 2010 at 12:28 am

Humanist Jeanne SAID:

“Therefore, the next time I want the judgmental and argumentative opinion of someone who has demonstrated his/her irrational tendency to jump to conclusions about complete strangers on the basis of a single four-letter word, I will definitely be speaking to you first.”

So please inform me, Oh Illogical One, just how is my saying someone who uses the term “dude” must be younger than I be so “judgemental and argumentative”?

SO HOW OLD ARE YOU!

(probably UNDER 35.)

Just how many over 60 year olds, much less those who are 75 like me, use such a rather brain dead term as “dude”?

Or was my saying you are “much less experienced, less knowledgeable” than I?

Facts are, I’m Much More experienced than most my age are much less those younger. I’ve lived in more countries (3) states (10) & cites (19) and lived at higher elevations than most people even visit. Had more professions & done more “out of the box” things than most even consider doing, much less actually do.

Experience = Knowledge. And of course, the MORE varied the experiences, the MORE the knowledge gained.

Any time you, or anyone else, wants to compare experiences, I am most certainly very willing to do so.

(And I am certainly NOT saying there are not more experienced, knowledgable and smarter people than I as I know there are. Only the odds of you being one of them is about zero)

Last Child, you really should not enter in to “battles of wits” when it is so obvious how totally unarmed you are.

  (Quote)

HumanistJeanne March 10, 2010 at 11:02 am

Wow. I enjoy debate and productive discussion more than most, but obviously this is neither. Enjoy what time you have left to “experience” life, Old Man. While, as you pointed, I clearly have more time than you likely do, I don’t intend to spend any more of it “battling” with you. Enjoy old age. Youth is still pretty awesome. Sorry about that.

  (Quote)

Neil C. Reinhardt March 10, 2010 at 11:25 am

I see rather than your PROVING your point, you again attack. How typical of those who have neither facts or logic to back them up.

And yes CHILD, if you have half as interesting life as I have had, you will be fortunate. So go play in your sand box with other anal retentive nit pickers of the world who are so clueless they do not even know what the primary purpose of langurage is.

  (Quote)

clark kent April 28, 2010 at 1:35 pm

But the atheist has larger breasts. Game over.  

agreed

  (Quote)

Glenn August 7, 2010 at 3:41 am

That you only listed one difference does not mean that there is only one. It just means thatthis is how you like portraying the difference, surely.

  (Quote)

T. Zambelli March 12, 2011 at 9:08 am

I wish the post’s author could meet a genuine Christian, not to contradict the idea above, but to understand the reason why genuine Christians would like to, for example, increase world happiness.

  (Quote)

Oh September 11, 2011 at 12:38 pm

ya but who wants to date/marry an atheist? i mean i before e..its stupid
actually after looking the christian chick has it all!! youre just subconsciously stereotyping her as a prude.
(come out virginia!)
what if science and religion could prove we were all the same person living countless overlapping lives? what would morality be then?

you should draw up the same comparison between the average person and a psychopath and see if it doesnt come down to a singular difference…

anyone who decides there is no god really doesnt deserve there own life because they havent aknowledged the fundemental difference it makes on the value of existence because its not THEIR value system, and like everyone else (all sinners), they know theyre are on the wrong side of it. But you dont have to acknowledge Judgement if you can pretend the judge isnt real. Just keep ignoring your daily sepeona to reality.

They are really just selfishly murdering God for everyone else. Without the slightest consideration. Thats a lot of deicide for one spoiled television soaked atheist to decide. An atheist is like a panda that wont screw to save its species.

The difference between an atheist and a believer is that the atheist will murder god for everyone and the believer would rather die than lose God for himself or fellow man.
Oh well uh you know, I mean that whole ‘new heart from Jesus’ thing… thats the difference. cus human nature is exactly the same for both. your all a bunch or ignorant crouch rubbing self absorbed animals. but im kind of proud of ya.

plus it aint even for you to ‘decide’ anyway: God already told you he exists. shut up.

-Oh

  (Quote)

John C December 12, 2011 at 8:26 pm

These sorts of lists fall flat for me.

Yes, every person has some irrational beliefs.Every legal system will have some injustice.Every human institution has flaws.

But, I would not accept, “human institutions cannot be perfect,” as a justification for not trying to improve them when possible.

I would not accept, “our legal system will never be perfect,” as a reason to allow an injustice to continue.

And I do not accept, “my rationality will never be perfect,” as a reason to not critically examine questionable beliefs.

Genius.

  (Quote)

Leave a Comment