People Taking the Debunking Christianity / Ultimate Truth-Seeker Challenge
First, John Loftus put up the Debunking Christianity Challenge:
I have a challenge for Christians. It’s a challenge few will take up… even though many expert Christian apologists have done it without a loss of faith. Other Christian thinkers… end up rejecting [their] former faith.
Do this. I’ll call this the Debunking Christianity challenge… Read up on all of the top Christian apologetics books and then [decide] in fairness to read all of the top skeptical books…
What are you afraid of? If your faith can withstand our arguments then you will be a better informed Christian with a much stronger faith. If your faith cannot withstand our arguments then your faith wasn’t worth having in the first place. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE!
Later, I provided my own suggested reading list and called it the Ultimate Truth-Seeker Challenge. You can also try the Ultimate Truth-Seeker Challenge: Easy Version.1
Whatever you want to call it, several people have decided to test their faith and read through the best that each side has to offer: theism and atheism, faith and doubt.2
This page is a continuously updated index of who those people are and how their journey has affected them.
- Andrew Atkinson. Began in 2007. Converted from Christianity to atheism.
- Phil Porvaznik, amateur Catholic apologist. Began January 2010.
- Bobby Kern, student pastor. Began January 2010.
- Scott “Noophy”, real estate agent, believer. Began January 2010.
- Greg Whitfield, pastor. Plans to begin in 2011.
- Nathan Brown ”Aeiluindae”, student, believer. Plans to begin in 2010.
- Kyle, 15 years old, believer. Beginning in 2010?
- Alec, 16 years old, atheist. Beginning in 2010?
- JuliantheApostate, student, atheist. Beginning in 2010?
- Micah Cobb, student, believer. Began January 2010.
- Jordan Peacock, software, agnostic theist. Began in 2009.
- J.K. Jones, student, Christian. Beginning in 2010.
- Wade Anes, atheist. Began in 2009?
- Chris Hallquist, atheist. Began in 2008?
- Kai Haswell, student, recent atheist. Beginning in 2010.
- Mitchell LeBlanc, student, agnostic atheist. Beginning in 2010.
- Michael, student, began in 2006.
- thomasblair, atheist. Beginning in 2010.
- Adam Sparkman, christian. Began in 2010.
- Damion Edmond, agnostic. Began in 2010.
- raichel, christian. Beginning easy version in 2010.
- Thomas Phillips, atheist student. Beginning the easy version in 2010.
- Timothy and Deena Mills, atheists. Beginning the easy version in 2010.
- Hendy, engineer, catholic. Began in 2010.
Who am I missing? Who else wants to try it?
Both believers and atheists are welcome to take the challenge.
- But obviously, neither Loftus nor I have proposed reading lists that that expose readers to all the options. We’re focused on one narrow part of the debate, between Christianity and atheism. [↩]
- Loftus keeps saying “Accept no imitations!” which I suspect is a dig at my Ultimate Truth-Seeker Challenge. Our two challenges are really the same thing, just with a slightly different book list. Naturally, I think my book list is better. :) [↩]
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The link you provide for your own reading list takes me to the OTF page on Loftus’ site. Where can I find your reading list? Dan
I’m a convert from catholicism to atheism, but I didn’t read very many books, I deconverted mostly due to watching debates and web resources that I read online, such as this site. Therefore, I think that I’ll take up this challenge and read the books on your list, though I’m probably going to read a lot more about the historical Jesus than you recommended, other than that I’ll pretty much stick to your list. It’ll probably take me a year or two, because I’m sixteen and I have tons of schoolwork, but I think it’ll be worth it. Thanks for posting this challenge Luke, I probably never would have done anything like it If you hadn’t recommended it. Alec
Over the span of decades, I’ve talked directly with theists of all stripes, mostly Christians (including Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses) but also a few Jews and Muslims (including a few ultra conservatives in each group).
They ranged in their general knowledge of the issues from the largely misinformed, largely uninformed, and then up to and including theologians, active priests, and evangelicals (some who were less informed than they thought they were).
Many times I’ve asked for them to tell me what they find personally convincing about their theological views. Once in a while, they will oblige me, but most of the time they use it to give a lecture on issues that on further inspection really weren’t (to be redundant) personally convincing to them. Occasionally, they make a very good and thoughtful point but it’s almost always on a detail that is distant from their religion or theology.
I’ve read a few religious books, the Christian Bible twice from cover to cover plus countless pages of commentary on it. Why should I continue to address their favorite book, and members of the book’s fan club? Would another couple thousand pages make that much of a difference?
I’ve even challenged a few of them to swap books and read each book a chapter or two at a time together. Some don’t want to pay the money, then shrink away when I point out a book that’s available on-line or at most libraries. I’ve even had people reject this challenge when I said the book I’d choose for them was the Bible!
Meanwhile, for most uninformed and even well educated theists, I end up having to discuss the basics from my point of view, and have to deal with them argue with me over what I actually think right after I’ve told them what I think. I had some demand that I admit that I think ‘everything came from nothing’ when I did not say that and bluntly rejected that strange idea. Saying honestly like Twain that “I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don’t know.” was simply not good enough, and that humble and obvious admission was seen as a failure and not as a strength.
“They have no problem with rejecting or us rejecting all other religions. Apparently, they and we can reject all those out of hand, but their’s must be given serious consideration, and we are not to stop considering it until we accept it.” (OMGF on Daylight Atheism as quoted by Greta Christina)
Hypocrisy and the “Modern Theology” Argument
Invincible Ignorance Hermes
I’m the same as Alec as in I grew up catholic and converted to atheism by watching debates, quite a few clips of the ‘Atheist Experience’, and a couple books. At first, I started with Dawkin’s and Hitchen’s latest book, the famous best-selling ones of the NA movement, but I got the spark and motivation to keep going. Besides that, I’ve only read David Steele’s ‘Atheism Explained’ because there were other philosophical texts that were calling out for attention.
I’m going to take the challenge as soon as I’m done with Walter Kaufmann’s Basic Writings of Nietzsche, which might take a while- especially with my college workload. Since I’m switching majors to Philosophy next semester, ((all of this speculating on religion, ethics, etc really made me realize just how awesome it is. Awesome enough to switch from a major that promised a 100k+ salary, and that I’d rather spend my life as a philosophy professor than in an Agricultural Research and Breeding lab.)) I’ll probably have a lot of other books to read, but I plan on at least starting before this term is over.
In that case, I’ll be dropping you some updates on the ‘journey’ as I go along. I really want to experience the best that both sides have to offer, or at least see if there is some brilliance to match Craig and his magnificent version of the cosmological argument on our side as well. Maybe this quest might help me decide what specialty I’ll be taking in my post-graduate studies. I don’t know… we’ll just have to see. JuliantheApostate
Dan,
Oops, fixed. lukeprog
I found the Real Link(TM) to the Ultimate Truth-Seeker Challenge:
http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6226 curious
Alec and Julian,
Cool. I’ll add you to the list.
Julian, this reading will certainly give you a head start on at least one area of philosophy! lukeprog
Wow, what a list Luke. The only person I could imagine reading through all the books on your list are people with no social life or no commitments (like a job).
How about a short list of 5 books? (do we get a badge for our web page – smile !)
Have any Christians made their equivalent 5 books? Sabio Lantz
You could say I began last year and just didn’t realize it.
Jordan Peacock, agnostic theist, work in software support. Very Christian upbringing.
Have read:
1. Guy P. Harrison – 50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God (354 pages, beginner, skeptical)
and
7. Greg Boyd & Paul Eddy – The Jesus Legend (480 pages, intermediate, apologetic)
and will be reading
9. Richard Carrier – Sense and Goodness Without God (444 pages, intermediate, skeptical)
next. Jordan Peacock
Sabio,
That’s a good idea. I should do a short list. I might wait until ‘The Christian Delusion’ (Loftus) and ‘The Case Against Christ’ (McCormick) are released, though. lukeprog
Jordan,
That’s excellent. Have any thoughts so far?
I highly recommend Vridar’s posts on the Boyd & Eddy book. lukeprog
Thanks for the mention, lukeprog. Micah Cobb
Crazy! Your experience is so similar to mine. I am *also* reading through Kaufmann’s Basic Writings of Nietzsche right now, and have been having extreme doubts about my major choice, wishing it was philosophy. (Unfortunately I only need 2 more quarters to graduate, so I am committed. ) Sly
“Naturally, I think my book list is better. :) ”
Really?
Draw your sword then. I challenge you to a duel! ;-) John W. Loftus
John,
What IS your list of books anyway? The lists I see on and linked from your page contain only skeptical books. lukeprog
I take your challenge. I am a Christian who would like to take a look at the best arguments agaisnt his position.
I wish you and Loftus would agree on a list, however. I am in graduate school with a full time job to boot, so I am low on time and money. I will get through the list though. J. K. Jones
I fully understand. There are simplified arguments, but how far they can be simplified depends largely on the person being addressed; what they currently believe, what they know (various disciplines), and why they believe as they currently do. Without those details, what you’ll get are page after page after page of text that may or may not apply to you but would apply to most people if taken as a group. Hermes
J.K. Jones,
Cool! Keep us updated.
I don’t expect everyone who takes on the challenge will get through ALL the books, but it’s worth a shot. :) lukeprog
I have been reading Vridar, and I know Greg so that’ll be interesting.
I’ve also been reading Richard Beck (experimentaltheology.blogspot.com); from the Christian side of things he nails a lot of stuff on the head – he has an uncanny way of articulating things that I experience but have trouble defining. Jordan Peacock
He had me at ‘Is God a Black Swan?’ lukeprog
Luke, my list of ten books are skeptical ones that can be found in the first link you provided above. Unlike you, I limited it to ten relatively inexpensive books for accessibility too. Your list has the advantage of suggesting Christian books, although I presumed Christians can choose their own books. My list is chosen for college level readers and geared to the conservative Christian. I don’t think philosophical books are as useful as you do for this challenge. And I don’t really want to argue the merits and demerits of each one of these books. I jested earlier when I challenged you to a duel. I welcome any such challenge. Thanks for keeping track of people who are doing this. I am very interested in hearing of the results and admire people who are willing to look into both sides. John W. Loftus
Ah, I see. lukeprog
Thank you, Luke!
My suggestion to implement Sabio Lantz’s idea is to divide the top 5 or so books in the list as the ones people should read with limited time. Then read further down the list if you have more time.
If we’re talking visual ways to display the list on the site, I see nothing wrong with:
THE MINIMUM YOU NEED TO READ
——————————–
1. Book One
2. Book Two
3. Book Three
4. Book Four
5. Book Five
.
IF YOU HAVE MORE TIME
——————————–
6. Book Six
7. Book Seven
8. Book Eight
. Dan
Dan,
Yeah, I’ll think about that. lukeprog
A. Sabio and Dan have have good suggestions.
B. Can anybody link to a Christian who purports to improve on Luke’s pro-belief selections? Desperately Seeking
Luke, I accept your challenge.
I am a student atheist who is relatively new to atheism (I converted from fundamentalist Christianity in my second year of college, two years ago). My conversion was largely guided by my own reflections and the discussions I had with other religious people, so I’m relatively unversed in the philosophy of religion. I see your challenge as the perfect chance to familiarize myself with the best authors in that area.
I’ve been attempting my own haphazard version of such a challenge, but it seems much more efficient to rely on the advice of someone who has already read through the literature and has separated the worthwhile books from the crap. Thanks for taking the time to compile this list. Kai Haswell
Kai,
Excellent! I hope you will track your progress on your blog. lukeprog
Hi Luke,
You could say that I have been kind of doing this already for the past two years, though there is very little overlap in the books I read and the books on your list. Partly because about half of what I read is in Dutch, partly because I’m reading more on historical Jesus and less on philosophy.
But what I do like from your list, and what I have been doing, is reading both christian and sceptical books.
But anyway, I turned from christianity to something like atheism, of agnosticism, depending in the exact definition you use.
I write some things about my journey and stuff I read on my blog, but as it is in Dutch I don’t think that it will be of use to any of you guys here. Bram van Dijk
Bram,
Thanks for chiming in. Luckily, there’s Google Translate. This post in particular resonates with the revelations that most disturbed me as a Christian just beginning to read the Bible critically. lukeprog
Well, google translate works better than I expected, but it’s still a kind of puzzle game to understand what the original meaning was of some of the sentences. Bram van Dijk
I have many books on that list completed already, but if it is still in line with your goals for the challenge I’ll gladly add my name to the list. I do so mainly since this is something I’ve intended to do anyhow!
I’m working towards graduate school to pursue studies in the philosophy of religion so I’ll gladly take notes during my progression through the list you’ve outlined.
I’ll certainly start this year, in fact, you could say I’ll start right now as until the summer I will be reading in my spare time.
P.S: I’m currently an ‘agnostic atheist’. Mitchell LeBlanc
Mitchell LeBlanc,
Cool. Good luck. lukeprog
Yeah, I bought & read Loftus’s & Carrier’s books last year, so you could say I started in 2009. Wade Anes
Don’t forget, people, while your saving money to buy those expensive acedemic books, you can read tons of free articles by the authors suggested at the Secular Web Library. Wade Anes
Wade,
So, are you planning to continue the challenge? lukeprog
Luke,
Definitely,I’ve been saving for books and reading tons of articles on the SC. I’ve already read most of the online content of the atheist authors (Martin, Oppy, Parsons, ect) so now it’s just reading the theist stuff. What apologetic book would you suggest I start with? Wade Anes
Oops! I meant the SWL (Secular Web Library). Do you know of any other sites with free acedemic articles like that one? Wade Anes
Wade,
Do I know of other sites with free academic articles? Yeah. Mine. (I link to tons of PDFs.)
Where to start? I arranged my list by what order you should read first. lukeprog
Ah, cool. Thanks. Wade Anes
I’m a 15 year-old atheist, and while I plan to go through that nice-looking reading list of yours, I hesitate to Doing it as part of a challenge, since it’s sure to be slow and interrupted process dependent on time, money, and what unrelated books I read in between. Tim Egg
Count me in. I kind of started in 2006, at least that was when I read my first of many atheist books. Still working on more, although time is much less permitting now. 19 years old, college student.
Status in 2006: Skeptical Christian
Status in 2010: Confident Christian Michael
And I like your list much better, simply because your list allows both sides to be spoken for, while his is all atheistic, which would really be quite depressing and I’m sure convincing if you never read what the other side had to say to defend themselves. It would be like a debate in which the Christian was never able to speak but just stood there, wonder who won? So thanks for giving bot sides equal opportunity. Michael
Michael,
I hope you’ll track your progress for it! lukeprog
Definitely will. just bought “warranted belief”, “Jesus, interrupted”, and “Sense & Goodness Without God: A Defense of Metaphysical Naturalism” today. For others interested, check spotcost.com for great book prices. Shows who has it for what price and if any coupons are available as well. Michael
Cool, Michael. lukeprog
I started reading everything that I could about refuting Christianity.I am the only non church-goer in my family.I have sibling that are preachers and missionaries.I was absolutely stunned when I read Matthew 24:34 and realized then that there was no turning back.Jesus was clear about his return.It was to have been in the first century.I have asked almost all the “net” apologist as to what they think Jesus meant.They ALL come back with the most far fetched ways of explaining away those first century return scriptures.They are nothing more than “spin doctors” and love to misdirect you away from the original question.I’m really pissed that someone did not point all this out to me years ago.It’s amazing how long that a lie can hang around.”As for me and my family,we shall live by logic,common sense and reason.” Roger