An Interesting Response to Bigotry

by Luke Muehlhauser on March 25, 2010 in Video

I think Skinny Jack Black has a good idea.

Previous post:

Next post:

{ 13 comments… read them below or add one }

Justfinethanks March 25, 2010 at 9:26 pm

Westboro Baptist Church are brilliant IRL trolls.

But credit to them: they take Calvinism to its logical (and simultaneously batshit insane) conclusion.

  (Quote)

Rhys Wilkins March 25, 2010 at 11:48 pm

Yeah Fred Phelps is a piece of shit but at least he takes the Bible seriously.

His “God Hates Australia” piece made me realise what a dirty rotten piece of scum he is. I personally knew one of the people killed in the Black Saturday bushfire, I wanted to wring the bastards neck for the heartless crap he said.

  (Quote)

lukeprog March 26, 2010 at 12:14 am

Fred Phelps is Crypt Keeper.

  (Quote)

Adam Sparkman March 26, 2010 at 1:28 am

I’m not sure I understand how protesting that “God hates fags” is taking Calvinism to it “logical conclusion”, but this was a really great idea to spread some kindness and compassion through the cloud of hate that is the Westboro Baptist Church.

  (Quote)

Bill Maher March 26, 2010 at 4:15 am

The ED article on him is pretty funny. http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Fred_Phelps

  (Quote)

Justfinethanks March 26, 2010 at 6:16 am

I’m not sure I understand how protesting that “God hates fags” is taking Calvinism to it “logical conclusion”

I suppose the the fixation on homosexuality is their own colorful little spin on it, but what I mean is they take seriously Calvinism’s view that humanity is seperated into two categories: those that God loves and saved, and those that God despises and condemns. In their passionate hated they take verses like 1 John 2:15 (“Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in Him”) to heart.

  (Quote)

Mike aka MonolithTMA March 26, 2010 at 6:42 am

Just awesome!

  (Quote)

James March 26, 2010 at 10:34 am

I suppose the the fixation on homosexuality is their own colorful little spin on it, but what I mean is they take seriously Calvinism’s view that humanity is seperated into two categories: those that God loves and saved, and those that God despises and condemns. In their passionate hated they take verses like 1 John 2:15 (”Do not love the world or anything in the world.If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in Him”) to heart.  

That’s not really what Calvinism says, I don’t think you’ll find any verse where it says God hates specific people, only certain acts of those people. If you read further, it’s obvious that the 1 John verses tells us to hate the way of the world rather than the people in it.

  (Quote)

Justfinethanks March 26, 2010 at 11:52 am

I don’t think you’ll find any verse where it says God hates specific people

Here are three.

“You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.
- Leviticus 20:23

“The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong. You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.
-Psalm 5: 5-6

“Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.”
-Hosea 9:15

In every instance God hates people BECAUSE of sin, but there is no sort of “love the sinner but hate the sin” kind of attitude implied in the old testament. It’s obvious He very much does hate the sinner.

Calvinists recognize this, and identify those that God has not elected to salvation as amongst those that God hates. (At least the fundamentalist, five point Calvinists do) But most Calvinists don’t have the courage to commit their to beliefs like the Phelps clan does.

  (Quote)

Jeff H March 26, 2010 at 2:09 pm

*sigh* Once again, I find it counter-productive to claim that somehow WBC is being “more true” to the Bible than other denominations/churches. That only gives their beliefs more credence (even though Justfinethanks and Rhys are obviously against them), and supports the idea that somebody is somehow a little better for being committed to terrible beliefs than only half-heartedly giving assent to terrible beliefs. Why is this? I would much rather support and condone a half-hearted bigot than an intensely zealous one.

At any rate, I like this idea. I think we might be able to use this giving-to-charity idea in other contexts. Nice stuff!

  (Quote)

justfinethanks March 26, 2010 at 2:31 pm

The idea that somebody is somehow a little better for being committed to terrible beliefs than only half-heartedly giving assent to terrible beliefs. Why is this?

Well, I suppose there is something irritatingly cowardly about pulling back on what you truly believe for PR purposes. Most Calvinists don’t put too much emphasis on their “God hates you” beliefs, not because they don’t truly believe it, but because they rightly believe people would be repulsed by that vision of God.

It’s like Intelligent Design advocates who refuse to commit to their belief that the Christian God is the “designer.” If they would just do that it would make them more honest, but it would also cause average joe to see it as a religious, not scientific movement.

But on the other hand, upon reflection, I do kind of see how silly and reductive it is to label extremists as “more pure” in their beliefs. And I certainly hate it when Christians say that the nihilism of Camus or Nietzsche “takes atheism to its logical conclusion.”

So I would like to cheerfully retract the accusation that Phelps is any more sincere in his Calvinism than (let’s say) Mark Driscoll.

  (Quote)

Jeff H March 27, 2010 at 2:22 pm

That’s a good point, JFT – I guess a lot of people don’t like the cowardliness. But if we’re thinking in pragmatic terms – trying to get fewer people to a) believe harmful things and b) act in harmful ways – I think it’s important that we don’t condemn the cowardliness. People need to see that there is good reason to be cowardly about such beliefs/acts, and that it’s the aggressive ones that should be condemned. I suppose my point is that we need to encourage people to be bold at doing the right thing, and encourage people to be cowardly about doing the wrong things. Otherwise we’re simply exacerbating the problem.

Anyway, thanks for the consideration. Cheers!

  (Quote)

Mattinator April 11, 2010 at 9:43 am

I had someone on another website link this page to me, and I admire the creativity of the guy in the video.

On the topic of the WBC, they’ve got their focus all wrong, whatever you believe about Calvinism, as they’re not true to the Bible anyway. They ignore the goodness of humanity in their emphasis on depravity, and they’re judging the wrong people. For example, see 1 Corinthians 5.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%205&version=NIV

As a Christian who leans Calvinist, the reason other Calvinists won’t pull stunts like this is because it’s unbiblical and reflects poorly on Christianity as a whole, not because they’re “less true” to Calvinism, nor because they’re afraid to deal with tough issues.

  (Quote)

Leave a Comment